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100 KW battery option for Model 3; Yes Please!

Discussion in 'Tech Talk' started by Mike, Aug 24, 2016.

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  1. Mike

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    My dream battery option for the Model 3 is a 100 KW battery.

    Now that the modules using the "old battery" have hit 100 KW for Model S & X, is there any reason why the new 2170s cannot be assembled into a Model 3 in a format to provide 100 KW?
     
  2. TrevP

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    I don't see any reason why not at this time however we still don't know the internal layout or the cell count in the Model 3 modules. The only thing I know is the battery has 8 modules.
     
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    • Daliman

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      The Model III pack will have to be somewhat smaller simply because of the physical space available for the battery pack, although Motor Trends estimate was only about 6%. If that is the case a pack of more than 90 Kwh should be possible even using the existing technology. Allowing the maximum space for the pack would be another reason for shifting the wheels as far out as possible. Tesla seems to have gotten much more efficient at packing the current cells together in the modules and proving sufficient cooling to allow the pack to function at peak performance.

      As there isn't information about the new cells capacity or how they form modules we will be guessing until the final reveal. However if JB and his team can't improve the performance by at least 10 % to allow 100 Kwh to be packed into the space available I will eat my shoe. We do know the standard pack giving at least 345 km range will be less than 60 kw. I suspect that is just a matter of keeping the base price under 35,000 and that it will really be a 75 Kw pack that most just pay to upgrade. While there doesn't seem to be a reason why 100 Kwh is not physically possible it might not be something that is available at least at first given the cost of upgrading by 40 Kw. I too would love the range and the physical attributes of the car rather than the software are what I intend to prioritize if i have to make that choice.
       
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      • Mike

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        I guess I'm not the only one that would "pay some money" for a 500+ km EPA range on the future Model 3.

        After seeing the comments by Elon Musk (para phrasing here) about 100 KW being the theoretical ceiling using the current cells and any further capacity range must wait for the new cells, I am eternally hopeful that the new cells will (by virtue of each one having that much more volumetric capacity) allow an option on the Model 3 for ranges exceeding 500 Kms.
         
      • Badbot

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        the MS has 16 battery modules. with 18700 cells
        the M3 has 8 battery modules. with 2170 cells so in stead of 50KW I think 70-75 will be the max
         
      • Mike

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        Looks like you are correct. I just need to work it out, longhand.......

        I figured the volume difference between the old cell (18mm x 65mm) and the new cell (21mm x 70mm) using this online calculator:
        http://www.onlineconversion.com/object_volume_cylinder_tank.htm
        18mm x 65mm = volume of 16540
        21mm x 70mm = volume of 24245
        The volume difference factor is 1.466.

        Assuming no better chemistry, but utilizing all the other 100 KW Model S battery techniques, those eight battery modules (with new 2170 cells for a factor of 1.466:1) would notionally become 11.73 "old modules".

        11.73 "old modules" divided by 16 "old modules" works out to 73.3%.

        So, you are bang on, I worked it out to 73.3 KW capacity (assuming no chemistry improvements).

        With the smaller size and better Cd, I wonder what a 73 KW battery pack will give the Model 3, range wise?
         
      • Skione65

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        #7 Skione65, Aug 25, 2016
        Last edited: Aug 25, 2016
        100Khw is my dream battery as well for the range it would provide. However....pricing remains key. The $20,000k upgrade price currently on the S for this to me is LUDICROUS!!! :)

        Ski
         
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        • Topher

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          It really isn't. You may want 100kWh.

          That makes no sense, if they are keeping the pack at 60kWh to keep the price down, then it makes no sense to not actually put in 60 kWh, but rather 75 kWh.

          Thank you kindly.
           
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          • Mike

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            Yes, that is what I meant, indirectly.

            What I really want is the 300 mile EPA range. Let's hope that is an optional upgrade in the Model 3.
             
          • TrevP

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            You have to be careful with raw volume calculations of the cells alone. There's a lot more going on with the module than just cell volume. You have to account for cooling lines etc.. We still don't know the actual layout of the cells in the Model 3 pack yet. Then it gets more complicated given the new 100kWh Model S pack that has completely new modules in it with more cells and new cooling which means a big change in the cell layout and an increase in the count.

            I've been looking over the reveal video very closely again and I can see what appears to be 8 cells wide X 16 cells deep or so in each of the 8 modules. It's very difficult to get an actual count because even in the HD video it's hard to make out the cells from just looking at the shadows. Stills put into Photoshop and tweaking contrast helps a bit but it's still murky.

            Then you have to take into account that Tesla might not have shown the true layout in the CAD projection since it's still a trade secret.

            As for the chemistry, JB confirmed the 2170 will have new chemistry. What I don't know is if this is the same as the cells used in the 18650 put into the 90/100kWh pack or something entirely different just for the new cell.
             
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            • Topher

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              If the base Model ≡ gets 215 EPA miles, and comes with 60 kWh that means 83 kWh for 300 Miles.
              If they get that with 55 kWh, that means 76 kWh.

              Either way, 40% increase from base to extended range version seems reasonable.

              Thank you kindly
               
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              • Mike

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                That looks right. Here's hoping Tesla can make it happen.
                 
              • Rick59

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                • Mike

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                  I wonder if the technique is like my old coolatron plug in cooler. Only moving part is a little fan, but magically brings down the temp of products. .....and if run in reverse (polarity of the plug), it warms things up. It could pre heat a cold battery......
                   
                • Pinewold

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                  Hoping for 55kWhr to 75kWhr upgrade with a little less weight due to new better cells so the net result is 300+ mile car. If ey can do it with fewer batteries, they can make more cars. On the plus side would really like to see 240 as minimum and 320 miles stretch goal.
                   
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                  • Red Sage

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                    I figure a Tesla Model ☰ P135D Coupe with Falcon Wing Doors could be available sometime around 2019. That would be the car for me. EPA rated range would be roughly 510 miles or so. 0-60 MPH in so dang fast adult underwear are part of the required wardrobe. 1/4 mile in 9.somethingeth at 145+ MPH. 70-to-0 MPH emergency braking in like 94 feet. Skidpad rating of 1.03g. Top speed of no less than 186 MPH (300 KPH). Nürburgring runs under 7:30 per lap for multiple laps. On FULL Autopilot. Yeah. That sound you hear is not the falling of rain, but of tears at M, RUF, and AMG. What? A man can dream.

                    But yeah... 100 kWh would certainly do just fine to start. I'm sure one of my Nephews would be willing to take the old thing off my hands when a 120 kWh or 135 kWh version came out. Right?
                     
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                    • Badback

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                      I am sure that if Elon has his way, we will be able to drive our ≡s into a Hyperloop pod an be sent from LA to NYC at 800 MPH, and get fully charged in the process. Followed shortly by ferry service to the Mars colony for lunch overlooking the Victoria crater.
                       
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                      • Michael Russo

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                        @Badback , don't see any reason, if this were to happen, why you could not gratify us with at least a couple of BEV of your own making by then!! :p
                         
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                        • Daliman

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                          Through a tunnel drilled by Boring inc. I would be very surprised if 235 isnt standard and 320 isnt an upper level option. Hopefully we will find out something more about the new cells next week.
                           
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                          • Michael Russo

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                            Agree, @Daliman, though an even more radical (Elon's chosen adjective for Model ≡...) target (wish?) would be 250 miles base EPA rated range, i.e. a nice round number (also interesting just - 2.3 km over the other magical threshold of 400 km!) as well as almost 5% higher than the Bolt for the fun of it... :D
                            Though I'd settle for 240 miles (386 km), what the heck..! :)
                             
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