All new cars mandated to be electric in Germany by 2030

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It looks like Germany is about to become the first major country to set an official deadline for a ban on gas-powered cars. India recently confirmed that it is evaluating a scheme for all its fleet to be electric by 2030 and both the Dutch government and the Norwegian government are discussing the possibility to ban gas-powered car sales and only allow electric vehicle sales starting also by 2025.

But while the Netherlands and Norway are fighting over the technicalities, a senior government official in Germany confirmed they will impose a mandate for all new cars registered in the country to be emissions free by 2030. more…

Filed under: Cars Tagged: Electric car, Electric Vehicles, Germany, germany electric car, zero emission mandate


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Dan Detweiler

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#3
I'm not so sure it is. On the surface, yes I can see where this is a good thing. However, I get REALLY nervous when the government starts mandating what I can and can't do or buy. I would rather see the electric option become so compelling that the public chooses to eliminate ICE cars because they are more expensive, dirtier, offer less performance and are generally the obviously inferior choice. Leaving it up to a federal mandate just sets a precedent for banning other things that the government may decide the general public shouldn't have in the future. Personally, I would rather make my own choices because they are the right choices...not because someone else says I should.

Not a big fan of "big brother" always watching over me from cradle to grave. I'm a big boy, I can make choices for myself.

Just my $.02

Dan
 

minogully

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#4
I get what you're saying, however, for me this is quite appropriate for the government to get involved in. Here's why:

It's always been the government's job to create laws that restrict your choices, if those choices mean that you would otherwise be doing harm to others. A few quick examples:
- Laws against stealing
- Laws against assault (which, fun fact, isn't even necessarily actual harm, it could just be the "intention" to cause harm)
- Laws against murder
Now, you may say, buying an ICE car doesn't cause harm to others. Except it does... to our health. Think of all of the health effects caused by the soot and other nasty stuff that gets thrown into the air. Smog has become a real health concern for some cities because it's gotten that bad.

In this way it's kind of like smoking, which people were completely allowed to do for the longest time even after research showed how harmful it is to your own health. But once they began to notice how harmful second-hand smoke is, they started restricting people's ability to smoke however and wherever they wanted.

I would rather see the electric option become so compelling that the public chooses to eliminate ICE cars because they are more expensive, dirtier, offer less performance and are generally the obviously inferior choice.
Smoking is actually an apt comparison, because smoking is more expensive, dirtier, causes your body to have less performance and is generally the obviously inferior choice than the alternative. Yet, even with all of that going against it, we still see people doing it. Sadly, I suspect the same would happen with ICE cars.
 

Dan Detweiler

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#5
The big flaw with your smoking analogy is that smoking really only impacts the individual that chooses to partake. I will always side with the choice that ensures the liberty of the individual to choose how they run their life. Smoking impacts their health, their insurance rates, etc. but has little to no impact on others (when using tobacco in the privacy of their own home).

I understand what you're saying, but I would prefer a method where the individual chooses to accept the policy or new product...not mandated to accept it weather it is their choice or not. That is when we will have truly won over the populace about EVs...when the vast majority choose to make that decision of their own free will, not because it was chosen for them.

Dan
 

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I would rather see the electric option become so compelling that the public chooses to eliminate ICE cars because they are more expensive, dirtier, offer less performance and are generally the obviously inferior choice.
It will be in time.

Tesla has already proven with the Model 3, the reason we're all here to talk about it, that it's an extremely compelling car for a lot of people and shows there *is* demand for such. The rest of the industry will follow in time, less they get left behind. Watch and see what happens when hundreds of thousands of Model 3 hits the road, that many more people will be exposed to the best EV on the market, and will then start to understand the benefits and the cycle will keep repeating. In 5 years there will be more choices to be had from others and more people will buy those too.

It's just like SUVs: first there were a few, then more and now lots of them because there's choice from every manufacturer. Look how many X series BMW has now. When I bought my 328i in 2000 they had nothing, now every bloody series lines has a variant. Mercedes is going crazy there too.

What we're seeing in the car industry now is change of drivetrains and the introduction of self-driving technology. These are happening party because of the technology is maturing, forced competition (from Tesla) and because of ecological reasons and safety.
 
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Dan Detweiler

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#7
Geeze, I just re-read my post and I sound like an advertisement for the Libertarian Party here in the States! Not trying to turn this into a political rhetoric thread...honest! ;)

Dan

(p.s. Vote Gary Johnson 2016!) hehehe!
 

Dan Detweiler

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#8
Well said Trevor. For me, I would let the market run its course and let the major manufacturers sweat out the realization that if they don't come around to this crazy thing called an EV they will be put out of business. I am also looking forward to the time when they realize that the dealership model of sales is outdated and putting them at a competitive disadvantage. (I hate the dealership experience and model)

Dan
 

Daliman

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#9
I actually see this being more important as a signal of the governments estimation of the political climate and the influence of ICE companies if any still oppose this target. It shows that the government firmly believes that the electorate will accept such a plan and what it implies for the German economy and vehicle use.

The recent announcement from Mercedes and Volkswagen make it likely that a large part if not the majority of their products would be electric drive train by that date in any case. The Model 3 has shown that the cost can now be made affordable and the experience of driving an EV is so superior that most people will freely adopt it. I expect most of the change will occur because of the market wanting what will be better cheaper to operate cars and the push given by Tesla and an ever expanding range of startups. GM recently announced it is hiring 1000 engineers here in Ontario to work on EV and autonomous driving technology. In a matter of months this shift has started to hit the major car makers, although I expect it will be slow it is happening. If it gets imposed I actually wonder if such a mandate will be needed when we hit 2030, but having a mandate that can be presented to the boards of automakers who will have to spend billions in R&D and retooling is probably a useful measure.
 

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The big flaw with your smoking analogy is that smoking really only impacts the individual that chooses to partake. I will always side with the choice that ensures the liberty of the individual to choose how they run their life. Smoking impacts their health, their insurance rates, etc. but has little to no impact on others (when using tobacco in the privacy of their own home).
I didn't agree, then I read your last statement here in brackets. This is really the most important point, I think.

With cars, you can't really use them without spewing toxins out into public, so there is no real equivalent to being able to use a car only in the privacy of your own home, like you can with smoking. I suppose that's where the analogy would fail.

I'm all for letting people be free to make their own choices, and this is really how it should be, but when someone else's choice start to negatively affect my or my family's life, that's when the government should step in.

Here's a resource that lists all of the harmful effects of vehicle exhaust.
 

MelindaV

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#11
technically the german regulation is for emissions free vehicles, not specifically EV.
Would BioDiesel not be emission free? Or could people much smarter than most of us invent an exhaust solution that would scrub any emissions?
 
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#12
I have to agree with both sides here, at least partially. First, I agree that the market should be free to choose what they want WHEN the choice does not significantly affect the public's health at large. That being said, ICE vehicles DO affect the public, and the entire planet's, health to a great extent. The government is supposed to work FOR the people, supporting them and making choices that will HELP them in the end. It's somewhat like the NFL concussion lawsuits: the league was liable for the players' health because they knew playing the sport would affect their health, and they did nothing, so now they have to pay. By 2030, I would not be surprised if some really rich environmentalists, albeit a rare bunch, did a similar lawsuit, although that probably wouldn't happen.

Now to go with the first argument again that the people should be free to choose their preferred type of vehicular propulsion. If we lived in 1994 when all there were in the way of EV's was the Chevy EV1, and a law was passed banning all ICE vehicles, I can see why people would be mad. A huge underground market for ICE vehicles would open up, and many people would protest the government's choice. So I can see why from the viewpoint of the market in general that we would want EV's to beat out ICE's anyway so that the government doesn't need to force our choices. But like I said, 2025/2030 is not 1994, and ICE vehicles are not in the best interests of the human race.
 

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#13
I am also looking forward to the time when they realize that the dealership model of sales is outdated and putting them at a competitive disadvantage. (I hate the dealership experience and model)
I agree, I think the dealership experience is rather "toxic" to say the least. However it's here to stay, at least for them incumbents since they have an existing network of franchisees already in place and it's not going away any time soon.

What they will have to do is adapt their businesses gradually to the move to EVs. There will always be requirements for service, much less, but will have to find other ways to make money. How? I have no idea but these guys are clever and they'll figure it out ;)
 

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#14
Would BioDiesel not be emission free?
From what I've been reading, BioDiesel is not really emission free. Here's an excerpt from a Wikipedia article on the subject:
If land use change is not considered and assuming today's production methods, biodiesel from rapeseed and sunflower oil produce 45%-65% lower greenhouse gas emissions than petrodiesel.

Sure, 65% lower greenhouse gas emissions is great, but it still isn't emission free so I'm not sure that it would qualify.
 
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From what I've been reading, BioDiesel is not really emission free. Here's an excerpt from a Wikipedia article on the subject:
If land use change is not considered and assuming today's production methods, biodiesel from rapeseed and sunflower oil produce 45%-65% lower greenhouse gas emissions than petrodiesel.

Sure, 65% lower greenhouse gas emissions is great, but it still isn't emission free so I'm not sure that it would qualify.
And most land use by humans is agricultural and it obviously does the most damage, so growing extra crops, hence using more land for agriculture makes biofuels actually much more harmful than traditional fossil fuels. Also growing the crops takes a lot of resources that could be used for other purposes. Biofuel is really the result of the oil industry wanting to look more environmentally friendly.

Believe it or not, agriculture has the biggest negative effect on the environment of all the things humans do.
 

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#16
technically the german regulation is for emissions free vehicles, not specifically EV.
Would BioDiesel not be emission free? Or could people much smarter than most of us invent an exhaust solution that would scrub any emissions?
Biodiesel is NOT emissions free. Anytime that you burn hydrocarbons there are byproducts. CO2 at the least, after you have tried to remove NOX and soot etc. The only thing that can be burned without harmful byproducts is hydrogen. And we sure don;t want to go down that road, IMNSHO.