1. Tesla Model 3 apparel now available!


    Dismiss Notice

Blue sky with pie.

Discussion in 'Electric Vehicles' started by Badback, Sep 21, 2016.

More threads by Badback
  1. Badback

    Valued Community Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2016
    Messages:
    1,091
    Likes Received:
    575
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    City & State/Province:
    Prior Lake, MN
    Country:
    Country
    Just letting my mind wander here:

    What if in the distant future, EVs could be charged while driving?

    Wires embedded in certain roadways could inductively charge the EV while it is moving down the road.

    Would not have to be especially efficient.
    Would not have to provide a full charge.
    Would only have to maintain the current charge, or significantly extend range.
    The EV could log the usage and report the amount for billing to a CC.
    The wires could be part of the electrical distribution system, higher voltage would be a plus.

    Major problems to overcome:

    Road repairs.
    Magnetically transparent cover for the wires.
    Additional cost to both the road and the EV.
    The inevitable Luddite rebellion.
     
  2. garsh

    Dis Member
    Moderator
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2016
    Messages:
    2,703
    Likes Received:
    1,519
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    City & State/Province:
    Pittsburgh PA
    Country:
    Country
    Additional thoughts:
    • Interstates (4+ lane, limited-access highways) are already complicated & expensive, so adding the cost to popular interstate routes would be the place to start.
    • The embedded wires would need to be coils in order to generate a magnetic field.
    • You want high efficiency, otherwise not enough energy is transferred to the car to make it worthwhile.
    • Efficiency drops as the distance between the road coils and receiver coils increases. So you'd want the road coils to be close to the surface.
    • The closer they are to the surface, the more likely they get damaged through pothole formation.
    • You would probably want the car to have a receiver coil that can be lowered at highway speeds to increase efficiency.
     
  3. Badback

    Valued Community Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2016
    Messages:
    1,091
    Likes Received:
    575
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    City & State/Province:
    Prior Lake, MN
    Country:
    Country
    A single conductor generates a magnetic field if current is passing through it, the coil in the car would need a lot of turns.
    The 60Hz magnetic field in the wire would have greater phase velocity the faster the car is moving.
    If enough energy is transferred to the car to sustain travel efficiency becomes irrelevant if the wire is also serving traditional loads.
    Yes, pickup coil close to surface. Probably automatically deployed.
    Yes, we need much better road construction, we do anyway.
     
  4. garsh

    Dis Member
    Moderator
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2016
    Messages:
    2,703
    Likes Received:
    1,519
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    City & State/Province:
    Pittsburgh PA
    Country:
    Country
    A straight conductor (I assume you mean straight, since a coil is still a single conductor) generates a weak magnetic field. Putting too many turns in a coil means that the length, and therefore the resistance, of the conductor increases, which also decreases efficiency.

    I'm too far removed from my EE degree to remember all of the math for figuring out the magnitude of these numbers. I'm sure that a little digging will turn up somebody who has done the calculations.
     
  5. Badback

    Valued Community Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2016
    Messages:
    1,091
    Likes Received:
    575
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    City & State/Province:
    Prior Lake, MN
    Country:
    Country
    I haven't done the math, I'm just speculating on what might be possible. A 100A current at 0.1 meter produces only 2 Gauss. Not very much to work with, but maybe there is a way to improve the numbers.

    Coils in the roadway would make this very expensive, so that can't be the answer.
     
  6. garsh

    Dis Member
    Moderator
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2016
    Messages:
    2,703
    Likes Received:
    1,519
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    City & State/Province:
    Pittsburgh PA
    Country:
    Country
    With the added downside that copper thieves will start tearing up interstates. :confused:
     
  7. Badback

    Valued Community Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2016
    Messages:
    1,091
    Likes Received:
    575
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    City & State/Province:
    Prior Lake, MN
    Country:
    Country
    What about a coil like a slanted slinky with a fero-concrete core? Any thoughts on that?
    Wires could be aluminium copper alloy to reduce cost.

    As for the thieves, there would be a lot of road kill!
     
  8. Topher

    Energy Curmudgeon
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    May 11, 2016
    Messages:
    551
    Likes Received:
    186
    Trophy Points:
    43
    City & State/Province:
    Maine
    Country:
    Country
    There will of course be absolutely no problems with the current induced in random parts of non-electric cars...

    Let's see the efficiency calculations.

    Thank you kindly.
     
  9. Badback

    Valued Community Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2016
    Messages:
    1,091
    Likes Received:
    575
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    City & State/Province:
    Prior Lake, MN
    Country:
    Country
    I can't see that we can claim much for efficiency. The distance from the road coil and the pickup coil will degrade efficiency. But power not used is not necessarily lost.

    I only posed this scenario to start a conversation.

    The technical hurdles are enormous, but the future is infinite.
     
  10. Topher

    Energy Curmudgeon
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    May 11, 2016
    Messages:
    551
    Likes Received:
    186
    Trophy Points:
    43
    City & State/Province:
    Maine
    Country:
    Country
    If you mean energy not used is not lost, then you are correct, but energy used is not lost either (xref 2nd law of thermodynamics). Entropy is another thing altogether. But the point I was making is that your coil is going to induce a current in ALL metals passing over it. Electric car or not. That energy most surely is being used. To do what is the question. Electrocuting passengers?

    And I only responded with objections to continue a conversation.

    And that future will be spent at thermal equilibrium, where nothing happens.

    Thank you kindly.
     
  11. Badback

    Valued Community Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2016
    Messages:
    1,091
    Likes Received:
    575
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    City & State/Province:
    Prior Lake, MN
    Country:
    Country
    I'm not pretending to have all of the answers, just posing a point for discussion.
    Stray magnetic fields would find the car to be a short circuit. No voltage induced, just losses as heat. Magnetics in the road way can concentrate the field to the area of the pickup coil. AP can center the car on the field. The field strength falls off at the square of the distance so the coil needs to be close to the roadway.
    The magnetic field can be confined to the area of the pickup coil which can run the length of the car.
    The source can be triggered by the presence of the EV and ignore other vehicles. Eventually all vehicles on the roadway will be EVs.

    Given that we have a long time to solve these problems, I think that this will probably happen eventually.
     
  12. Topher

    Energy Curmudgeon
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    May 11, 2016
    Messages:
    551
    Likes Received:
    186
    Trophy Points:
    43
    City & State/Province:
    Maine
    Country:
    Country
    Just pointing out that it is a bad idea for discussion.

    We have already solved all these problems. We know how to supply electricity to vehicles. You put the wires ABOVE the route. What we don't have is time to convert from fossil fuels to sustainable sources of power.

    Thank you kindly.
     
  13. garsh

    Dis Member
    Moderator
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2016
    Messages:
    2,703
    Likes Received:
    1,519
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    City & State/Province:
    Pittsburgh PA
    Country:
    Country
    And we've already solved the self-driving vehicle. It's called a horse.
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
    • Badback

      Valued Community Member
      Expand Collapse

      Joined:
      Apr 7, 2016
      Messages:
      1,091
      Likes Received:
      575
      Trophy Points:
      113
      Gender:
      Male
      City & State/Province:
      Prior Lake, MN
      Country:
      Country
    • Gary Moore

      Well-Known Member
      Expand Collapse

      Joined:
      Apr 10, 2016
      Messages:
      225
      Likes Received:
      130
      Trophy Points:
      43
      Gender:
      Male
      City & State/Province:
      Mountain House, CA
      Country:
      Country
      Is the pie blueberry? I tend to love blueberries. The fashion police might want the pie to match the sky, but then putting cadmium white into the blueberries would be a very bad idea, except for funeral homes and the like. Lipid peroxidation is in the mind of the beholder. We should really explore all angles. More patients might improve the economic viability of emergency rooms. There's an upside to everything. Just hope it's not the rubber side.

      Yes, somehow I cannot possibly ignore this technical discussion. Engineering schools just attract certain mindsets.

      I'm an IE, with two brothers (one an EE and the other a history major who was a city planner) and a sister (who was a Postmaster). Integrated systems of humanity and machines just fascinate me. I'm like a bionic, human moth.

      In the olden days in Motown, the idea of self-driving vehicles involved sticking sensors into the roads, but roads commonly need to be resurfaced, as indeed Badback and Garsh have each mentioned above as problema nĂºmero uno.

      Change the roads? States rights in the land that I love apparently subconsciously forbid crass uniformity, or at least in some minds it does, but I presume that we're talking something like Ike's American baby here, the Interstate, and its kin. That's the General idea. (I mean, even Hitler had his good ideas now and then, and plagiarism is still the purest form of flattery...)

      In days of old, trolleys had their higher wires for power distribution before better batteries were ever built. Of course GM decided to promote the somewhat gassy conception that ICE's don't need wires or tracks, so please, just buy your stuff from Truck and Coach. Wires are spidery! (Personally,those Trekkie tractor beams always bother me. If I were crushed between ships in space, no one would hear me scream!)

      Certain motor-heads who still want their individualistic and two-tired/tyred vehicles to make loud noises (their one lifesaver against Ohio boys like me, who are still struggling valiantly to consider the probabilities of two-wheelers regularly passing legally atwixt yours truly and occasional vast semis, while they ride rapidly upon the dashing white lines out here in California).

      I fear that those folk will politically organize their protests against special lanes of the roadways being adorned with their tax dollars or needlessly being devoted to fools who seem hell bent upon saving all life on Earth. ("You're not sticking expensive copper into my asphalt! Give me liberty from Fastrak--or from extra charges--or give me death!" )

      Politics is the art of the possible.

      I suppose Garsh is on the right track. City planners may be forced to concede that the horse is again the answer. Let us work on technology to recycle biomass. (Sorry, my sister was a caballero who once rode at the fair in Ohio. She bought her tack from an industrious Amish vendor.) Yeah. given further consideration, the idea stinks.

      To some, sleep merely seems like wasted time. My subconscious employs it as a communications window.

      I also concur with Topher that we already know how to supply power to vehicles; however, I intend to take these matters into my own hands and religiously shall plug mine in at night. I probably need the regular exercise and yet another excuse to dream more..

      Is my Three here yet? (Aye, there's the rub.)

      Free radicals are typically toxic.
       
      • Funny Funny x 1
      • Badback

        Valued Community Member
        Expand Collapse

        Joined:
        Apr 7, 2016
        Messages:
        1,091
        Likes Received:
        575
        Trophy Points:
        113
        Gender:
        Male
        City & State/Province:
        Prior Lake, MN
        Country:
        Country
        Found another video:
         
        • Informative Informative x 1
        • Gary Moore

          Well-Known Member
          Expand Collapse

          Joined:
          Apr 10, 2016
          Messages:
          225
          Likes Received:
          130
          Trophy Points:
          43
          Gender:
          Male
          City & State/Province:
          Mountain House, CA
          Country:
          Country
          I always worry what those Oak Ridge Boys are up to. Now they want me to replace my girlfriend with one who habitually parks over something which has been previously set in harmony with the correct charging resonance frequency. I'll then need to set up a new system to monitor for those conditions and send me alert text messages, which I won't get because I have silenced my phone at the movies. I often forget to close the garage door and lock up at night and have a ejection device installed in my bed, which throws me down the stairs when I forget. (It gets even scarier when it's time to put the trash on the street for collection.)

          Picking up that heavy charging cable, walking those many nanometers, and dangerously inserting it into my car is much more attune to my primitive, masculine, troglodyte biology. The world in which everything happens automagically destroys all human
          comprehension of what's really going on, and it inspires people to vote for shysters. No wonder there is no appreciation for engineering.

          Goodnight, Rube Goldberg, wherever you are...
           
          • Funny Funny x 1

          Share This Page

          Model 3 Owners Club © 2017. All rights reserved.
          Model 3 Owners Club (M3OC) is an enthusiast club and is not affiliated with Tesla Motors or the Tesla Motors Club Forum (TMC).
          All Tesla logos are trademarks or registered trademarks of Tesla Motors.