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CCS Charging - Plug

Discussion in 'Germany' started by droeder, Aug 17, 2016.

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  1. droeder

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    Apparently there are not so many fellow germans active here. But this is relevant for almost all of Europe, since major car manufacturer have signed the initiative (VW, Porsche, Daimler, BMW, Volvo). Tesla and Farraday Future did also recently.

    This plug allows AC and DC charging using a combination of Combo2 (Tesla plug) or DC using the 2 additional pins up to 150kw. This won't shake the world of Tesla owners, but it is a major move towards rapid charging at gas station while traveling long legs.

    Does anyone know, if Tesla will adapt the Model 3 to this new plug standard? Cool thing about it, we would be enabled to use Tesla Supercharger as well as public Supercharger.
     
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  2. droeder

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  3. KirbyTurbo

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  4. droeder

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    Thanks KirbyTurbo. That would be awesome
     
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    Tesla has joined the CCS working group so I expect an adapter from them eventually
     
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  6. skynet74

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    The CCS standard can
    theoretically 150kW, but in real live it can only most 43 kW net. With the tesla supercharger port you can use 150kW theoretically and most 120kW. If you will use the M3 at Chademo or CCS, you can buy a CCS/Chademo adapter an charge round about 50kW.
     
  7. teslaliving

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    Tesla does not currently have an adapter for CCS but I think they will need to add support for it eventually.
     
  8. Konstantinos Kostis

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    #8 Konstantinos Kostis, Aug 9, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2017
    Most CCS chargers in Germany are currently rated at 50 kW, so don't expect to get 150 kW out of them. It'll take time before those are deployed in significant numbers and to my knowledge currently no car is available on the market that can charge at 150 kW using CCS.

    Also most DC chargers in Germany are triple charger, so AC, CHAdeMO, and CCS.
    If the Tesla CHAdeMO adapter works on the Model 3 we have an attractive alternative to SC where they are not available.
    However, I wouldn't mind either a CCS adapter or even a CCS capable version in the EU.
    I also wished we could get up to 22 kW AC since that is not so problematic in Germany (I have that in my garage) but I suppose we'll end up with 11 kW or 16,5 kW AC tops (for the long range version if we're lucky).
     
  9. Thomas Mikl

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    Actually due to elektrek the standard version charger is 32A max. which shoudl result in 16,5 kW and the long range version charger is 40A which should get you up to 20-22 kW sustained.
    You have to be careful though, yes most households in Germany (and here in Austria) do support a 400V 3-phase connection, most household fuse boxes only support 16 kW as their top usage. So even if you have a 400V power outlet that you want to connect to a wallbox, you need to make sure that your breaker box will support this and contract a certified electrician to do the installation.
    Also the cost for most 16 kW installations is considerably lower, so you have to check if that will not be better suited for you cost wise.

    You Germans are lucky with CHAdeMO, here in Austria many companies have ditched that and are going for Type2 and CCS2 only... I sure hope Tesla will make a connector.
     
  10. Michael Russo

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    I imagine that, again by the end of 2018 when we start seeing the first EU deliveries, that a T≡SLA/CCS adaptor will be available somehow...

    Of course, by then there will be three times as many SCs, Elon said... ;)
     
  11. Konstantinos Kostis

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    #11 Konstantinos Kostis, Aug 11, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2017
    How do you get from 32A (at 240V single phase in the USA) to 16.5kW (three phase EU)? Can you please ellaborate?
    Current Tesla Model S/X have 11kW as the default and 16.5kW as an option (additional cost).
    There used to be a "Doppellader" option and claimed to allow for 22kW but that's gone.

    In any case 16A fuses are common for separate lines in apartments. That's also why three phase electric stoves are generally rated at 11kW max. (16A). That doesn't mean the whole apartment is limited to that. How many fuses/breakers does your apartment have?
    My apartment has ca. 60m² and 9 such fuses/breakers. They run in parallel! Not that I normaly use the max. on all lines at any given time.

    Our house (made for three/four parties) in 1971 has an 80A slow blow master fuse. If you add up all consumption in the house it must not exceed that. Even though single lines in my apartment are indeed limited to 16A the line going through my power meter is not limited by that. That's why it was possible to run a three phase 32A cable to my garage (not directly connected to the house) and install a KEBA KeContact P20 there. I didn't do it myself, it was done by a local master electrician (and very nicely, too). The difference in cost was minor since the cable surely wasn't the most expensive part of the installation cost. I used 10mm² so it doesn't heat up too much. Wasn't that much more expensive than 6mm² cable that would have worked, too.
     
  12. Thomas Mikl

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    written hastily maybe a few errors here is the real deal from my houses installation and from the ÖNORM (austrian electrical certification):

    The EU plug and wiring standards are:
    single phase 240V (used to be 220V, was raised in the 90s) and 16A which is 3840W
    some older houses have only 10A that should be careful.
    Then there is the single phase "blue" plug found for washers, dryers etc. It most of the time is also 16A but there is a possibility to make it 22A which would result in 240*22 = 5280W
    Then there is a 3-phase single plug in 2 variants:
    400V - 16A = 6400W per phase pair -> around 11kW true limit
    400V - 32A = 12800W per phase pair -> around 22kW true limit
    For special operations you can put the CEE32 in a pair config that would give you 22kW * 2 -> around 40kW in the real world.

    Now the model 3 chargers can draw a max current of 32A (short range) and 40A (long range) as far as the elektrk article goes...
     
  13. Konstantinos Kostis

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    #13 Konstantinos Kostis, Aug 11, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2017
    EU standard voltage is 230V (not 240V). Actually it's a range around 230V to be more precise.

    Older households in Germany allow for 230V/10A, which amounts to 2300W or 2.3kW.
    With special replacement Schuko plugs given the cables are fit for this 230V/14A is possible, that's 230V/14A or 3220W/3.2kW
    230V/16A amounts to 3680W or 3.7kW (CEE blue). Those usually have 16A fuses/breakers so no 22A then.
    However some German automakers can charge up to 230V/20A with a charge box and given your cables and installation allow for it. That would give us 230V/20A or 4600W/4.6kW.

    3-phase "400V" are really three phaseshifted phases of 230V each. They can be split and used seperately. e.g. we have three phases in each apartment in our house.
    3x230V/16A amounts to 11040W or 11kW (CEE16). They also usually have 16A fuses/breakers.
    3x230V/32A amounts to 22080W or 22kW (CEE32). Those usually have 32A fuses/breakers.

    Some people even have 3x230V/63A (43kW) installed. Mostly on commercial/industrial estates. More is theoretically possible but I do not know of any car capable of charging at more than 43kW AC and only some of the Renault ZOEs do 43kW (Q210, Q90).

    Maybe there are some differences between electrical installations in Austria and Germany after all...
     
  14. Thomas Mikl

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    And there was I thinking that we copy everything from Germany hehe
     
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  15. Konstantinos Kostis

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    Well, it's clever to copy the good stuff and come up with something better for the less good stuff anywhere.

    Btw. my Austrian KEBA P20 (from Linz) works really fine with my 3x230V/32A (22 kW) electric installation here in Germany.
    Technical standards are really great in that respect.
     
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