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Charge speed diff on STD vs LR

Discussion in 'Charging and Infrastructure' started by Truav8r, Aug 5, 2017.

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  1. Truav8r

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    #1 Truav8r, Aug 5, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2017
    When I first saw the specs on the battery choices regarding 240V charging speeds, I admit I was a bit disappointed. I didn't think for a second the charge amp capacity would be anything less than on S (48A). 32A on the standard battery and 40A on the long range battery had me scratching my head. But then I had another thought, 2 actually...

    First, are we positive these 240V charge specs are tied to the battery itself, and not to the UMC that comes with the respective cars? In other words, is it possible the UMC that comes with the standard battery vehicle is set to 32A, and the UMC that comes with the long range battery vehicle is set to 40A? So when Tesla quotes the recharge rates of the 2 battery sizes, technically they might be quoting the charge rate of the UMC included with each vehicle? Of course, this would mean they are making 2 different UMCs - not exactly an efficient thing as far as supply chain is concerned.

    Under this scenario, I'm wondering if there's a chance the car's built-in charger is indeed rated at 48A, but would only be fully utilized when using the hard wired Wall Charger?? Otherwise, there is zero speed difference between using a Wall Charger and the included UMC (yea, I know, there are other advantages to the WC compared to UMC). Except for keeping the UMC handy in the car for trips, there is no advantage to the WC for M3. A little disappointing.

    So... are the UMCs really different between the battery configs, or do they just dial themselves down per the car's request (40 vs 32amp).
     
  2. SoFlaModel3

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    Right from Tesla...

    Standard:
    • Home charging rate: 30 miles of range per hour (240V outlet, 32A)
    Long range:
    • Home charging rate: 37 miles of range per hour (240V outlet, 40A)
     
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    • Truav8r

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      Yes, I know what it says. Just holding out hope those quoted amp/mph specs are tied to the respective UMCs that come with each car.

      Going with the Wall Connector on the S, at least you knew some of the premium you were paying for the unit went toward a faster charge rate. But if that advantage is totally gone on the 3, I have a feeling they will sell a lot fewer WCs to M3 owners than they otherwise might have, if a higher charge rate couod be had.
       
    • Model34mePlease

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      Sorry to duplicate this from another thread, but I think it is relevant:

      The press release specifies those numbers at 240V, 32A power and 240V, 40A power, respectively. Maybe the standard battery is actually limited to 32A home charging. That would be unfortunate. The LRB corresponds to 9.6 kW which is the maximum with NEMA 14-50 connection. I would expect the press release to specify the charge rate with the best equipment included with the car, i.e. NEMA 14-50. That rate is significantly better than the Model S charge rate of 29 miles of range per hour with NEMA 14-50. Either that means that the LRB is limited to 9.6 kW or the charge rate would be higher with the Wall Connector. You can't tell from the press release.
       
    • Truav8r

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      Thanks for quoting that thread. I saw that, and it was partly responsible for jogging for my thinking on this. I'm not holding my breath, but it would be a nice little bonus if it turns out a M3 connected to a hard wired WC manages to draw 48A. <fingers crossed>
       
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      • Model34mePlease

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        I had the same issue with the quote of 170 miles of range added in 30 minutes with the LRB on an SC, the same as the max rate quoted for the S/X. I'm sure Tesla is very sensitive about ANY M3 spec. exceeding the S or X. I wonder if we are being sandbagged and there is actually more capability than has been admitted to with the M3. Whether the software would allow us to use it or not, I don't know. I do hope that as S/X capability increases that Tesla will unlock any remaining capability for us too.

        This is another reason that I'm leaning strongly to the LRB.
         
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        • KennethK

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          The chargers are located internal to the car and they are 7.2kW and 9.6kW for the SR and LR batteries respectively. If the WC can supply more than the charger is capable of, the charger will still not be able to handle it and will max out at their respective charge rates.
           
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          • Truav8r

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            KennethK... independent of doing the math from the amperage rate, we have absolute confirmation that the internal chargers are 7.2 and 9.6kw??? Where are those numbers found (again, independent of just doing P=V•I)?
             
          • KennethK

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            The numbers were provided from the press release and a little math ;). I guess you could be optimistic and Tesla would surprise us, but I think Tesla is cutting costs and only providing the larger charger with the larger battery. The UMC is most likely the same in both LR and SR vehicles.
             
          • Truav8r

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            In the end, that's probably correct. Still find it hard to believe that Elon would make it so there is virtually no advantage for M3 owners to spring for the hardwired WC, other than the convenience of not having to worry about whether you want to bring the UMC along with you on a given day. That's probably enough of a reason that I'll spring for it anyway, in spite of having a perfectly good J1772 in the garage already
             
          • KennethK

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            @Truav8r , I also have a J1772. I'm going to just buy an extra J1772 to Tesla adapter and leave it attached ($95).
             
          • Truav8r

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            I considered that too, but I don't want to fumble with the adapter all the time (seems like some folks have issues with that where unplugging the J1772 doesn't always have the adapter come with it, leaving the adapter to pull out separately). Plus, might as well have the button available for auto-opening the charge port door, even if it's only a vanity thing. Albeit a cool vanity thing. :)
             
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            • Brokedoc

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              Just an edjucated guess but I suspect that the charge rate may be limited due to a heat or longevity issue. If you dump 40A into a 75kw battery you generate a certain amount of heat. Dump the same amount into a 55 kw battery and now the heat level increases much more and battery cell longevity decreases. This may also account for the shorter warranty on the smaller battery... can anyone pull up the charge rate on the older 60kw MS/MX CARS?

              ** edit **
              Disregard. I now remember the 60kw batteries were really 75kw with a software limit so that the charge rate and heat should not be affected.
               
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              • Truav8r

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                @Brokedoc Right. Plus, that wouldn't jive with the MS75 being able to charge at the full 48amp of it's standard internal charger.
                 
              • Brokedoc

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                Remember that the cells in the 75 kw battery is different than the presumed 75kw battery of the M3 which may be a factor but I can Also definitely see that the cost differential in the vehicles would justify them to find savings in decreasing the capacity of the onboard charger.

                One big item that also suggests that my heat theory is correct is the maximum supercharging rate is also slower for the M3 standard range battery compared to the M3 long range. The DC Supercharger bypasses the onboard charger thereby allowing much faster charge rates. See this image of my screen on an MS P85D loaner I had while supercharging.
                DBB43921-AD18-4D56-AE05-5BB2469D686C.JPG
                 
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                • pjfw8

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                  Keep in mind that the miles of charge per hour is more than competitive with the S and X even at the lower rate. Compare a long range and Model 3 at 40 and an S at 48. (37 vs 34).
                   
                • Scuffers

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                  #17 Scuffers, Aug 13, 2017 at 2:15 AM
                  Last edited: Aug 13, 2017 at 2:21 AM
                  Not sure I buy the excuses for slow onboard charger rates, if this was the case, supercharging would be impossible.

                  My guess is that they have put in the minimum charger to meet a recharge time of ~7 hours (for overnight charging).

                  This also means that home charge point installs are cheaper, with the US NEMA 14-50 sockets and EU Type 2 outlets (32A).

                  Mate with a Mx P100D can only charge at 32A at home because of the limits of a single phase type 2 socket, so he mostly charges it at work from on 32A 3-phase (24Ax3 vs. 32Ax1, so <6 hours vs. >13 hours)
                   
                • garsh

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                  DC charging (of which supercharging is one type) bypasses the onboard charger. The onboard charger is only used to convert AC to DC.
                   
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                  • Scuffers

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                    Not what I was getting at.

                    People have said it's about temperature (management) of the battery pack, well, if you can supercharge it, then this cannot be the limitation of the onboard changer(s).
                     
                  • Michael Russo

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                    I'll shamefully plead guilty to being a total ignorant on all these technical matters. :oops:

                    My only practical layman's conclusion is that the 310 Model 3 will charge faster any time I travel, if not also while I sleep (which since I joined M3OC, I do much less of... :D).

                    This, coupled with the extra 90 miles of range, is enough for me to want to do everything to allocate the extra $9k to get the LR version, unless by the time I get to order there is an intermediate 250+ miles option :)rainbow:) that charges as fast as the 310! ;)
                     
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