1. Tesla Model 3 apparel now available!


    Dismiss Notice

Final push of S and X before HUD installed?

Discussion in 'Rumour Mill' started by Steve C, Jan 2, 2017.

Tags:
More threads by Steve C
  1. Steve C

    Well-Known Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2016
    Messages:
    362
    Likes Received:
    237
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Gender:
    Male
    City & State/Province:
    Toronto
    Country:
    Country
    Ok, so..... As this is the rumour mill thread, I thought this was a good spot to put this.

    How possible is it that Tesla is doing the heavy push for custom orders now to clear the inventory and prepare for a HUD upgrade on the S and X? The S and X will get more bells and whistles than the model 3 so I'd imagine it's just a matter of timing.

    My bet is that the S and X with get the HUD upgrade like the model 3 sooner than later. Probably the latest they would announce it would be at the 3rd Model 3 reveal. Perhaps saying something like..... 'and this new feature is now available on all S and X orders from here forward'

    Musk didn't want to announce the full autonomy until the S and X were being built with it included. I may be wrong but it does appear to be his pattern.

    Anyone want to bet a beer on it? (10 people max lol)

    Happy New year everyone.
     
    • Agree Agree x 6
    • Like Like x 3
    • Funny Funny x 1
    • Steve C

      Well-Known Member
      Expand Collapse

      Joined:
      Sep 28, 2016
      Messages:
      362
      Likes Received:
      237
      Trophy Points:
      43
      Gender:
      Male
      City & State/Province:
      Toronto
      Country:
      Country
      It could also be the new high voltage charging hardware that is getting rolled out to the S and X. Just have a feeling something is happening soon to both the S and X.
       
      • Like Like x 3
      • MichelT3

        Top-Contributor
        Expand Collapse

        Joined:
        Nov 16, 2016
        Messages:
        671
        Likes Received:
        338
        Trophy Points:
        63
        Gender:
        Male
        City & State/Province:
        Steenderen, Netherlands
        Country:
        Country
        As @TrevP already stated, the high voltage charging probably needs the new bigger battery cells. It's not logical that those cells already will be put into the S and X, because Tesla needs all production capacity for the Model 3.
         
        • Like Like x 1
        • garsh

          Dis Member
          Moderator
          Expand Collapse

          Joined:
          Apr 4, 2016
          Messages:
          2,121
          Likes Received:
          1,164
          Trophy Points:
          113
          Gender:
          Male
          City & State/Province:
          Pittsburgh PA
          Country:
          Country
          I disagree. Tesla is going to position the S and X as the technology leaders of the lineup. Any new ground-breaking features such as faster charging will be introduced on those vehicles either before or simultaneously with showing up on the Model 3.
           
          • Like Like x 2
          • Agree Agree x 1
          • MichelT3

            Top-Contributor
            Expand Collapse

            Joined:
            Nov 16, 2016
            Messages:
            671
            Likes Received:
            338
            Trophy Points:
            63
            Gender:
            Male
            City & State/Province:
            Steenderen, Netherlands
            Country:
            Country
            @garsh You mean that faster charging should also be possible with the smaller battery cells? This is contradictory to @TrevP 's opinion, which I value greatly.
            Maybe with the cooling system that is now used for the 100 kWh pack?
             
            • Like Like x 2
            • MelindaV

              ☰ > 3
              Moderator
              Expand Collapse

              Joined:
              Apr 2, 2016
              Messages:
              2,405
              Likes Received:
              1,597
              Trophy Points:
              113
              Gender:
              Female
              City & State/Province:
              Vancouver, WA
              Country:
              Country
              is the cell design the current limit, or the wiring?
               
              • Like Like x 1
              • garsh

                Dis Member
                Moderator
                Expand Collapse

                Joined:
                Apr 4, 2016
                Messages:
                2,121
                Likes Received:
                1,164
                Trophy Points:
                113
                Gender:
                Male
                City & State/Province:
                Pittsburgh PA
                Country:
                Country
                I'm saying that if the new cells are required to allow the faster charging rates, then Tesla will start making S & X batteries using the new cells before the Model 3 goes on sale. They won't be saving all of that battery production capacity for the Model 3.

                It's also not clear to me that the current battery packs are incapable of charging at higher rates. I just don't recall reading much about the current cell's charging limitations.
                 
                • Agree Agree x 3
                • AEDennis

                  Top-Contributor
                  Expand Collapse

                  Joined:
                  Apr 10, 2016
                  Messages:
                  684
                  Likes Received:
                  363
                  Trophy Points:
                  63
                  City & State/Province:
                  Southern California, Most of the time...
                  Country:
                  Country
                  I reject the position that Elon's tweet regarding >350kW necessarily means that, when the time comes, that any vehicle delivered by Tesla before such an event will be capable of charging st any faster speed than was delivered before such an event.

                  It may not necessarily be a technical issue with batteries or cables or anything.

                  Having gone through several iterations of Tesla improvements and being priced out of any in-car improvements on my current vehicle understands more than most that Tesla builds impressive cars that are the best at the time one purchases the car new. However, improvements occur at rapid pace and do not necessarily assume that things in a current Tesla will be more advanced than the next one...

                  Take it from me. We have a Roadster and a pre D/ AP 1.0 Model S, and I know many who have Model S that are equipped with the A pack battery that only charges at 90kW
                   
                  • Like Like x 3
                  • Useful Useful x 2
                  • Steve C

                    Well-Known Member
                    Expand Collapse

                    Joined:
                    Sep 28, 2016
                    Messages:
                    362
                    Likes Received:
                    237
                    Trophy Points:
                    43
                    Gender:
                    Male
                    City & State/Province:
                    Toronto
                    Country:
                    Country

                    As I had mentioned. I believe this will be a hardware upgrade and probably not possible on current models (P100D possibly being the exception)

                    It doesn't make sense to me that they would release the model 3 with the new cells and not the S and X. By the time the 3 is ready to ship, I would think that the S and X will have the new cells, >350kW charging, HUD and everything else the 3 has plus more.

                    This part of the reason I think 2017 is going to be crazy for Tesla (and TSLA). Throw in a few new model reveals and this baby is going to MOON!! lol..... I hope everyone has loaded up on TSLA.
                     
                    • Like Like x 2
                    • Agree Agree x 1
                    • TrevP

                      M3OC Founder / Administrator
                      Staff Member Founder
                      Expand Collapse

                      Joined:
                      Mar 1, 2016
                      Messages:
                      3,003
                      Likes Received:
                      2,339
                      Trophy Points:
                      113
                      Gender:
                      Male
                      City & State/Province:
                      Aurora,Ontario
                      Country:
                      Country
                      The new cells were a design requirement for the Model 3 in order to achieve economies of scale and have the optimal cell dimensions and energy density required for the smaller car. They are indeed going into the Model 3 initially but Tesla has said they will be deployed across all the products, including the PowerWall/PowerPack.

                      It's just a matter of time when they will show up in the Model S/X but it requires a redesign the of the pack. Elon has said they have basically gone as far as they can with the 18650 cells in the P100DL go going forward it they will be using the 2170. But it's not necessarily a forgone conclusion that they must put those cells into the Model S before the Model 3 just because the Model S is is supposed to have "the latest technology" all the time. To me I don't see the new cells as being heldback for the Model 3 so they can be implemented in the S first. There's plenty of other stuff they can put on the S first.

                      I think we need to separate the new cells into it's own thing and not think of them as a requirement "new technology" per se but as a requirement for the Model 3 to achieve the cost cutting.
                       
                      • Agree Agree x 4
                      • Like Like x 2
                      • Informative Informative x 1
                      • Steve C

                        Well-Known Member
                        Expand Collapse

                        Joined:
                        Sep 28, 2016
                        Messages:
                        362
                        Likes Received:
                        237
                        Trophy Points:
                        43
                        Gender:
                        Male
                        City & State/Province:
                        Toronto
                        Country:
                        Country
                        I'm sure Elon has a team that has already redesigned the S and X pack. They are waiting for the batteries to cure and then load up the new packs!

                        Of course I'm just guessing, but I don't think I'm far off.
                         
                        • Like Like x 1
                        • TrevP

                          M3OC Founder / Administrator
                          Staff Member Founder
                          Expand Collapse

                          Joined:
                          Mar 1, 2016
                          Messages:
                          3,003
                          Likes Received:
                          2,339
                          Trophy Points:
                          113
                          Gender:
                          Male
                          City & State/Province:
                          Aurora,Ontario
                          Country:
                          Country
                          No doubt they have started work on the pack redesign but my point is not that they necessarily have to put them into the S *before* the Model 3 arrives "just because".

                          I think some would interpret the lower cost cells going into the Model S as an attempt at more profit and not passing along the savings to the customer, especially if the pack densities stayed the same. Of course this most likely would not be the case as a lot of people want higher density packs no matter the cost...
                           
                          • Like Like x 1
                          • Agree Agree x 1
                          • garsh

                            Dis Member
                            Moderator
                            Expand Collapse

                            Joined:
                            Apr 4, 2016
                            Messages:
                            2,121
                            Likes Received:
                            1,164
                            Trophy Points:
                            113
                            Gender:
                            Male
                            City & State/Province:
                            Pittsburgh PA
                            Country:
                            Country
                            The one thing that I don't see happening is Tesla advertising the Model 3 with 600+kW charging without first offering that capability for the S and X. I think that's one sure way to decimate S & X sales. Who would want to buy an S with 40-minute charge times when a 3 costs less and charges in 10 minutes? I think the possibilities are:
                            1. Supercharger V3 won't be ready before the Model 3 launch, so no vehicles will be offered with that option initially.
                            2. Same as 1, but Model 3 has the (unadvertised) capability at launch. When SC V3 is ready, new S & X orders have the option, and Tesla offers an over-the-air "upgrade" for existing Model 3 owners to unlock the capability.
                            3. Tesla is able to offer SC V3 charging for S & X using the existing 18650 cells. Doesn't seem likely, but I haven't managed to find a definitive statement from a Tesla source stating that the current batteries are incapable of charging at higher rates.
                            4. Tesla is able to quickly transition S & X to 2170 cell battery packs to offer the capability. This assumes that Gigafactory can ramp up to meet S, X, and 3 demand.
                             
                            • Agree Agree x 2
                            • Like Like x 1
                            • Useful Useful x 1
                            • Creative Creative x 1
                            • Steve C

                              Well-Known Member
                              Expand Collapse

                              Joined:
                              Sep 28, 2016
                              Messages:
                              362
                              Likes Received:
                              237
                              Trophy Points:
                              43
                              Gender:
                              Male
                              City & State/Province:
                              Toronto
                              Country:
                              Country
                              We should just chat over a beverage Trev. ;)

                              I agree with what you are saying but.... This is where they have the ability to really make the S and X stand apart from the 3.

                              Imagine a Model S P150D with 1000km of range and a 0-60 of 2.2.
                               
                              • Like Like x 1
                              • TrevP

                                M3OC Founder / Administrator
                                Staff Member Founder
                                Expand Collapse

                                Joined:
                                Mar 1, 2016
                                Messages:
                                3,003
                                Likes Received:
                                2,339
                                Trophy Points:
                                113
                                Gender:
                                Male
                                City & State/Province:
                                Aurora,Ontario
                                Country:
                                Country
                                Name the time and place dude ;)

                                For sure we can expect the S to get bigger packs and more range. Falls into line with the Supercharger version 3 Elon mentioned. A bigger pack means you can hit it hard to get to 80% a lot faster.
                                 
                                • Agree Agree x 2
                                • Like Like x 1
                                • Tom Bodera

                                  Active Member
                                  Expand Collapse

                                  Joined:
                                  Aug 10, 2016
                                  Messages:
                                  88
                                  Likes Received:
                                  51
                                  Trophy Points:
                                  18
                                  Gender:
                                  Male
                                  City & State/Province:
                                  Hillsburgh, ON, CA
                                  Just to keep in mind that the harder you hit these cells the shorter the battery life. This is why regular supercharging is discouraged in the manual and other sources. A nice slow charge to 80% (no more for best use) and cycled down to 30% (or higher) for optimum battery life/range.

                                  My two cents would be that S & X will get 2170's first or at the same time as model 3. It sounds like that production capacity may be an issue especially with all the Power Pack 2 contracts they have been getting which i do believe also use the 2170's (different chemistry though).
                                   
                                  • Like Like x 2
                                  • Agree Agree x 1
                                  • Steve C

                                    Well-Known Member
                                    Expand Collapse

                                    Joined:
                                    Sep 28, 2016
                                    Messages:
                                    362
                                    Likes Received:
                                    237
                                    Trophy Points:
                                    43
                                    Gender:
                                    Male
                                    City & State/Province:
                                    Toronto
                                    Country:
                                    Country
                                    Does anyone know how long the batteries need to cure before they are able to be deployed?
                                     
                                  • MelindaV

                                    ☰ > 3
                                    Moderator
                                    Expand Collapse

                                    Joined:
                                    Apr 2, 2016
                                    Messages:
                                    2,405
                                    Likes Received:
                                    1,597
                                    Trophy Points:
                                    113
                                    Gender:
                                    Female
                                    City & State/Province:
                                    Vancouver, WA
                                    Country:
                                    Country

                                    However, Tesloop who only used Superchargers from nearly 0% to a 100% charge on a daily basis only has a 6% degradation after 215,000 miles. they had an interview on the podcast Talking Tesla (ep. 55) a few months ago.
                                    Tesla's batteries are holding up pretty well, and expect their engineers have taken a higher charge rate into consideration on battery design.
                                     
                                    • Like Like x 5
                                    • MelindaV

                                      ☰ > 3
                                      Moderator
                                      Expand Collapse

                                      Joined:
                                      Apr 2, 2016
                                      Messages:
                                      2,405
                                      Likes Received:
                                      1,597
                                      Trophy Points:
                                      113
                                      Gender:
                                      Female
                                      City & State/Province:
                                      Vancouver, WA
                                      Country:
                                      Country
                                      I'd seen 24hours, but can't remember if that was from the gigafactory tour last summer, or somewhere else, and couldn't readily find it.
                                       
                                      • Like Like x 1
                                      • Agree Agree x 1
                                      • Red Sage

                                        The Cybernetic Samurai
                                        Expand Collapse

                                        Joined:
                                        Dec 3, 2016
                                        Messages:
                                        687
                                        Likes Received:
                                        434
                                        Trophy Points:
                                        63
                                        Gender:
                                        Male
                                        City & State/Province:
                                        Los Angeles CA
                                        Country:
                                        Country
                                        The Tesla Model S debuted with an 18650 battery cell that per JB Straubel was about 40% more energy dense than what was available in the Tesla Roadster. Though an upgrade battery pack was eventually announced in 2015 for the Tesla Roadster... I think no one actually took delivery of one until some time in 2016. Similarly, the Tesla Roadster was not capable of using Superchargers at all, and still is not after the upgraded battery pack in installed.

                                        Technology advances with time. There will be those who are left behind. Such is life.

                                        Tesla has no concern whatsoever over 'decimating' sales of the Model S. They originally expected to sell perhaps 15,000 of them per year. They have moved on the order of 165,000+ of them through 2016. Better than 11 years worth of cars in only 4-1/2 years since launch. In a car with an 8-year product cycle. Everything they sell of Model S through 2020 is pure gravy.

                                        The Model X outsold the Porsche Cayenne during 2016. There is a strong possibility it will match or surpass the BMW X5, Mercedes-Benz GL/GLS-Class, and AUDI Q7 this year, 2017. It is ICE manufacturers that should be afraid, not Tesla.

                                        If Tesla is able to create a Model ☰ that greatly surpasses the Model S on all fronts, they will.
                                         
                                        • Agree Agree x 5
                                        • Like Like x 1

                                        Share This Page

                                        Model 3 Owners Club © 2017. All rights reserved.
                                        Model 3 Owners Club (M3OC) is an enthusiast club and is not affiliated with Tesla Motors or the Tesla Motors Club Forum (TMC).
                                        All Tesla logos are trademarks or registered trademarks of Tesla Motors.