1. Tesla Model 3 apparel now available!


    Dismiss Notice

Model 3 80 scored 334 miles EPA rated range but Tesla voluntarily lowered it to 310 miles

Discussion in 'Tech Talk' started by Troy, Sep 20, 2017.

More threads by Troy
  1. Troy

    Active Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2017
    Messages:
    26
    Likes Received:
    46
    Trophy Points:
    13
    City & State/Province:
    London
    Country:
    Country
    #1 Troy, Sep 20, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2017
    Part 1: Introduction

    Hi, everybody. I decided to create this new thread to present the topic better. In my research during the last month, I came up with the theory that the Model 3 80 (aka Model 3 Long Range RWD) scored 334 mi EPA and Tesla voluntarily lowered it to 310 miles. I have lots of data to support this theory. However, this will take a few messages and I want people to be able to follow along easily. Therefore I will start with an analogy to explain what's happening here:

    Imagine we are able to tell a person's birthdate by processing some data. The birthdate we can calculate is their actual birthdate and not necessarily what their ID shows. We know that a few people have ID's that show a different birthdate than the actual day they were born.

    When we do the calculation for Dolores, the date we calculate is different than what her ID shows. We ask the reason but she doesn't say anything. Some people suggest that maybe the calculations don't work and that's the reason why it doesn't match.

    Then we do the calculation for Maeve and it matches what her ID shows. We do it for Bernard and it also matches. Then we try it for Clementine but again it doesn't match her ID. We try to explain that it doesn't match because her ID doesn't show her actual birthdate but critics say the calculations must be wrong sometimes. Then Clementine pulls out another document that shows her actual birthdate and it matches.

    In this analogy, Clementine represents the Model S P100D, Maeve the Nissan Leaf, Bernard the Bolt and Dolores the Model 3. What is special about the Model S P100D is that the EPA has published both the voluntarily lowered range and the range before it was voluntarily lowered.
     
    • Love it! Love it! x 4
    • Like Like x 2
    • Troy

      Active Member
      Expand Collapse

      Joined:
      Sep 18, 2017
      Messages:
      26
      Likes Received:
      46
      Trophy Points:
      13
      City & State/Province:
      London
      Country:
      Country
      #2 Troy, Sep 20, 2017
      Last edited: Sep 20, 2017
      Part 2: Bernard

      Like in the analogy, this is one of the calculations that match what is being declared and we do it to show that the method works. This calculation works perfectly for the Chevrolet Bolt because its range was not voluntarily lowered. In other words, the declared range is the actual test score from dyno tests. We want to calculate the following 3 numbers from EPA dyno test results:
      • 238 mi EPA rated range
      • 128 MPGe city fuel economy
      • 110 MPGe highway fuel economy
      [​IMG]
      Screenshot source: EPA

      Here are the 4 numbers from the dyno test we will use as input data:
      • 67.4206 kWh wall consumption in city dyno test (see page 6 here)
      • 364.4 mi in city dyno score (see page 6 here)
      • 66.508 kWh wall consumption in highway dyno test (see page 7 here)
      • 310.63 mi in highway dyno score (see page 6 here)
      Step 1: City and highway range: To calculate these, you simply multiply the dyno scores by 0.7.
      City range = 364.4 mi * 0.7= 255.08 mi
      Highway range = 310.63 mi * 0.7= 217.441 mi

      Step 2: Combined range: This is the EPA rated range. It is calculated from 55% of city range and 45% of highway range.
      Combined range = 0.55*255.08 + 0.45*217.441= 140.294 + 97.84845 = 238.14 mi EPA rated range

      Step 3: MPGe numbers: MPGe means miles per 33.7 kWh wall consumption.

      If city range is 255.08 miles per 67.4206 kWh wall consumption,
      then city range is X miles per 33.7 kWh wall consumption
      X= 255.08 mi * 33.7 kWh / 67.4206 kWh= 127.5 mi per 33.7 kWh wall consumption = 128 MPGe city fuel economy

      If highway range is 217.441 miles per 66.508 kWh wall consumption,
      then highway range is X miles per 33.7 kWh wall consumption
      X= 217.441 mi * 33.7 kWh / 66.508 kWh= 110.18 mi per 33.7 kWh wall consumption = 110 MPGe highway fuel economy

      We calculated 3 numbers from the dyno scores and they all match what was declared. MPGe numbers are not affected by voluntary reductions. Therefore, they will always match even when the EPA rated range is voluntarily lowered.
       
      • Informative Informative x 3
      • Like Like x 1
      • Winner Winner x 1
      • Troy

        Active Member
        Expand Collapse

        Joined:
        Sep 18, 2017
        Messages:
        26
        Likes Received:
        46
        Trophy Points:
        13
        City & State/Province:
        London
        Country:
        Country
        #3 Troy, Sep 20, 2017
        Last edited: Sep 20, 2017
        Part 3: Maeve

        Again, this calculation is a match. It demonstrates that the method works. The EPA has published the following 3 numbers and we are able to calculate these from the dyno scores:
        • 107 mi EPA rated range
        • 124 MPGe city fuel economy
        • 101 MPGe highway fuel economy
        [​IMG]
        Screenshot source: EPA

        Here are the 4 numbers from the dyno test we will use as input data:
        • 31.78 kWh wall consumption in city dyno test (See page 4 here)
        • 166.41 mi city score (See page 4 here)
        • 31.78 kWh wall consumption in highway dyno test (See page 6 here)
        • 136.4 mi highway score (See page 6 here)
        Step 1: City and highway range: To calculate these, you simply multiply the dyno scores by 0.7.
        City range =166.41 mi * 0.7= 116.487 mi
        Highway range = 136.4 mi * 0.7= 95.48 mi

        Step 2: Combined range: This is the EPA rated range. It is calculated from 55% of city range and 45% of highway range.
        Combined range = 0.55*116.487 + 0.45*95.48= 64.06785 + 42.966 = 107.03 mi EPA rated range

        Step 3: MPGe numbers: MPGe means miles per 33.7 kWh wall consumption.

        If city range is 116.487 miles per 31.78 kWh wall consumption,
        then city range is X miles per 33.7 kWh wall consumption
        X= 116.487 mi * 33.7 kWh / 31.78 kWh= 123.52 mi per 33.7 kWh wall consumption = 124 MPGe city fuel economy

        If highway range is 95.48 miles per 31.78 kWh wall consumption,
        then highway range is X miles per 33.7 kWh wall consumption
        X= 95.48 mi * 33.7 kWh / 31.78 kWh= 101.25 mi per 33.7 kWh wall consumption = 101 MPGe highway fuel economy

        We calculated 3 numbers from the dyno scores and they all match what was declared. By the way, it wasn't exactly a mystery that the Bolt and Leaf range were not voluntarily lowered. The EPA is not trying to hide this. They release yearly documents that show what range numbers were voluntarily lowered. The screenshot below is from an EPA document that you can download here. I found that file on this page under the first column called Datafile1.

        [​IMG]
         
        • Informative Informative x 2
        • Like Like x 1
        • Troy

          Active Member
          Expand Collapse

          Joined:
          Sep 18, 2017
          Messages:
          26
          Likes Received:
          46
          Trophy Points:
          13
          City & State/Province:
          London
          Country:
          Country
          #4 Troy, Sep 20, 2017
          Last edited: Sep 20, 2017
          Part 4: Dolores

          What is interesting here is that the part of the data we can match contradicts the other data. These are the 3 numbers the EPA has published:
          • 310 mi EPA rated range
          • 131 MPGe city fuel economy
          • 120 MPGe highway fuel economy
          [​IMG]

          Here are the 4 numbers from the dyno test we will use as input data:
          • 89.404 kWh wall consumption in city dyno test (see page 6 here)
          • 495.04 mi in city dyno score (see page 6 here)
          • 89.41 kWh wall consumption in highway dyno test (see page 7 here)
          • 454.64 mi in highway dyno score (see page 7 here)
          Step 1: City and highway range: To calculate these, you simply multiply the dyno scores by 0.7.
          City range = 495.04 mi * 0.7= 346.528 mi
          Highway range = 454.64 mi * 0.7= 318.248 mi

          Step 2: Combined range: This is the EPA rated range. It is calculated from 55% of city range and 45% of highway range.
          Combined range = 0.55*346.528 + 0.45*318.248= 190.5904 + 143.2116 = 333.8 mi EPA rated range

          Step 3: MPGe numbers: MPGe means miles per 33.7 kWh wall consumption.

          If city range is 346.528 miles per 89.404 kWh wall consumption,
          then city range is X miles per 33.7 kWh wall consumption
          X= 346.528 mi * 33.7 kWh / 89.404 kWh= 130.62 mi per 33.7 kWh wall consumption = 131 MPGe city fuel economy

          If highway range is 318.248 miles per 89.41 kWh wall consumption,
          then highway range is X miles per 33.7 kWh wall consumption
          X= 318.248 mi * 33.7 kWh / 89.41 kWh= 119.95 mi per 33.7 kWh wall consumption = 120 MPGe highway fuel economy

          We have calculated 3 numbers from the dyno scores and two of them match what was declared but one doesn't.
           
          • Like Like x 2
          • Informative Informative x 2
          • Troy

            Active Member
            Expand Collapse

            Joined:
            Sep 18, 2017
            Messages:
            26
            Likes Received:
            46
            Trophy Points:
            13
            City & State/Province:
            London
            Country:
            Country
            #5 Troy, Sep 20, 2017
            Last edited: Sep 20, 2017
            Part 5: Clementine

            In the analogy, Clementine was the girl who could document two different birth dates and I said she represented the Model S P100D. Here is the document for the Model S P100D. I found that 2017 file on this page under the first column called Datafile1. Here is a screenshot:

            [​IMG]


            This EPA document says "Combined range voluntarily lowered to 315 miles" and when you select city range, you can see the original range in the formula bar. What they are doing here is, they are reducing the city and highway range retroactively at the same rate the combined range was reduced. In other words, the Model S P100D scored 324.3 mi EPA rated range and it was voluntarily lowered to 315 miles. The ratio of this reduction is 315/324.3. The city range originally was 305.9 miles but they want to reduce it by the same rate. That's why they are multiplying it by 315/324.3. The EPA is not trying to hide voluntary reductions. They are just trying to have consistent city, highway and combined range numbers where all of them are voluntarily reduced.

            This 2017 file is very valuable because the EPA doesn't normally leave the original range numbers in the formula cells. Normally, this file should show 297.1 mi as static text and that's it. They were supposed to convert formula cells to static text. In Excel you do that by copying the cells and then right click to same cells > paste special > paste values. They forgot to do that in the 2017 file but they have done it in all previous years.

            These 3 numbers were published for the Model S P100D:
            • 315 mi EPA rated range
            • 92 MPGe city fuel economy
            • 105 MPGe highway fuel economy
            [​IMG]
            Screenshot source: EPA

            Here are the 4 numbers from the dyno test we will use as input data:
            • 111.47 kWh wall consumption in city dyno test (see page 10 here)
            • 414.45 mi in city dyno score (see page 10 here)
            • 111.88 kWh wall consumption in highway dyno test (see page 11 here)
            • 469.99 mi in highway dyno score (see page 11 here)
            Step 1: City and highway range: To calculate these, you multiply the dyno scores by 0.738. The Model S and X use different multipliers. There are 3 different multipliers for different Model S trim levels. These are published in another EPA document.
            City range = 414.45 mi * 0.738= 305.8641 mi
            Highway range = 469.99 mi * 0.738= 346.85262 mi

            Step 2: Combined range: This is the EPA rated range. It is calculated from 55% of city range and 45% of highway range.
            Combined range = 0.55*305.8641 + 0.45*346.85262= 168.225255 +156.083679 = 324.3089 mi EPA rated range

            Step 3: MPGe numbers: MPGe means miles per 33.7 kWh wall consumption.

            If city range is 305.8641 miles per 111.47 kWh wall consumption,
            then city range is X miles per 33.7 kWh wall consumption
            X= 305.8641 mi * 33.7 kWh / 111.47 kWh= 92.47 mi per 33.7 kWh wall consumption = 92 MPGe city fuel economy

            If highway range is 346.85262 miles per 111.88 kWh wall consumption,
            then highway range is X miles per 33.7 kWh wall consumption
            X= 346.85262 mi * 33.7 kWh / 111.88 kWh= 104.477 mi per 33.7 kWh wall consumption rounded to 115 MPGe highway fuel economy

            Similar to the Part 4, this calculation also ended up with a different EPA rated range number than advertised however we can see that the method is correct and the calculated number is the original number before the voluntary reduction because, the calculated 324.3089 matches exactly what the document shows.
             
            • Informative Informative x 2
            • Like Like x 1
            • Troy

              Active Member
              Expand Collapse

              Joined:
              Sep 18, 2017
              Messages:
              26
              Likes Received:
              46
              Trophy Points:
              13
              City & State/Province:
              London
              Country:
              Country
              #6 Troy, Sep 20, 2017
              Last edited: Sep 20, 2017
              Part 6: Conclusion

              It's not exactly clear why Tesla voluntarily lowered the range. I can think of a few reasons:

              Theory 1: 334 miles was achieved with aero wheel covers and Tesla wanted to be more accurate about the range.

              Theory 2: EPA rated range is slightly optimistic. Tesla wanted the range to be more realistic.

              Theory 3: Tesla didn't want Model 3 buyers to complain about degradation. Therefore they are under promising and over delivering.

              Theory 4: Tesla wanted to make the Model S/X look good.

              Here are some data points to consider:

              1. Elon said when somebody comes to a Tesla store and asks about the Model 3, they are anti-selling the Model 3 and they tell people to check out the Model S instead. He also said they are not trying to make the Model 3 waiting list longer.

              2. As part of the anti-selling campaign, Tesla created a comparison page to compare the Model S and Model 3. That page was misleading because it used to show 215+ miles for the Model 3. There was no mention of 310 miles. Many media sources reported that the Model 3 is a cheaper and smaller car with 215 miles range. This is not correct because more than 60% of Model 3 buyers prefer the larger battery based on survey data. Also, the sales started with the larger battery but they didn't mention 310 miles at all until the very last day which was the delivery day.

              3. The comparison page also compared the Model 3 55 performance to the Model S P100D, even though Tesla knows that they will make a Model 3 P80D. Before they created the compare page, Elon had already confirmed that there will be a Model 3 performance version with the Ludicrous mode. The correct comparison would be to compare the Model S P100D to Model 3 P80D or Model S 75 to Model 3 55.

              In addition, the compare page said the Model 3 comes with coil suspension but that's misleading because later Tesla confirmed that smart air suspension will be available soon. Comparisons should be more accurate but that would defeat the reason why the page was created. It was created because they want to convert some of the Model 3 reservation holders to Model S buyers.

              4. Tesla didn't release the battery sizes for the Model 3. If you look at the specs on the Tesla website here, the page has an incredible amount of Model 3 specs except the very basic one: battery sizes. The reason is that they didn't want the 75 kWh Model S to look bad because the Model 3 larger battery is 80 kWh.

              5. Tesla changed the naming scheme to further hide the battery sizes. The names of the Model 3 trim levels should be Model 3 55, 55D, 80, 80D, P80D.

              6. In the past, Tesla advertised incorrect specs for the cheaper models to encourage more sales of the expensive models. See the Model S 85D vs Model S P85D 0-60 times example here.

              7. Tesla is not worried about advertising unrealistic range numbers. In Europe, they don't have the EPA rated range. Instead, they have the completely unrealistic NEDC rated range. For example, the Model S 100D has 393 miles NEDC rated range in the UK. See Tesla's webpage here. We know that even the 335 miles EPA is a little optimistic. However, outside of North America, Tesla uses the NEDC numbers to stay competitive with other car manufacturers.

              8. To encourage the sales of more expensive cars, in the past Tesla didn't mind using some creative advertising methods. For example, when they launched the Model S P85D, they advertised 275 miles range. See the screenshot here. At that time, they needed more P85D sales. However, when they delivered the car, it came with 242 miles EPA range. See the screenshot here. Tesla's history shows that they are not exactly worried about overly optimistic advertisement or wanting to advertise realistic range numbers.

              9. Tesla advertises EPA rated range numbers achieved with the smaller wheels even for the performance cars like Model S P85D, Model S P90D, and Model S P100D that are sold mostly with the 21" wheels. Tesla uses the EPA rated range with 19" wheels. See this message for data sources.

              This undermines the argument that the voluntary reduction might be related to aero wheel covers. In other words, why would they not advertise the EPA rated range that is achieved with the aero covers even though the car comes with the aero covers while at the same time they advertise the EPA rated range for performance versions with the smaller 19" wheels even though those cars are mostly sold with 21" wheels.

              ---

              Based on these data points, I think Theory 4 is more likely. I think the only reason for the voluntary reduction is that Tesla wanted to sell more Model S cars while they ramp up Model 3 production. Therefore advertising 334 mi EPA for the RWD Model 3 80 would make the 100 kWh Model S versions look bad. People are going to be less happy paying $140,000 for the Model S P100D with 315 miles EPA knowing that a much cheaper Tesla has more range. Now they don't have to worry about that.

              Also if the Model 3 80 achieved 334 mi EPA, it would mean the Model 3 80D should achieve about 347 mi EPA. That makes it difficult to sell the Model S 100D with 335 miles EPA.


              [​IMG]
               
              • Like Like x 11
              • Informative Informative x 6
              • Michael Russo

                Top-Contributor
                Moderator
                Expand Collapse

                Joined:
                Oct 15, 2016
                Messages:
                3,510
                Likes Received:
                2,063
                Trophy Points:
                113
                Gender:
                Male
                City & State/Province:
                Belgium now, SW France when my Model ≡ gets here
                Country:
                Country
                Again, your simple moderator from Western Eu is definitely a Dolores type of guy... :D
                 
                • Funny Funny x 1
                • SoFlaModel3

                  Impatiently Waiting
                  Moderator
                  Expand Collapse

                  Joined:
                  Apr 15, 2017
                  Messages:
                  2,693
                  Likes Received:
                  1,250
                  Trophy Points:
                  113
                  Gender:
                  Male
                  City & State/Province:
                  South Florida
                  Country:
                  Country
                  My brain just exploded. In a good way, but still it’s gone ;)
                   
                  • Funny Funny x 5
                  • Agree Agree x 2
                  • garsh

                    Dis Member
                    Moderator
                    Expand Collapse

                    Joined:
                    Apr 4, 2016
                    Messages:
                    2,686
                    Likes Received:
                    1,509
                    Trophy Points:
                    113
                    Gender:
                    Male
                    City & State/Province:
                    Pittsburgh PA
                    Country:
                    Country
                    @Troy makes the kinds of posts I wish I could make. Well, when I'm not trolling. Such attention to detail. I love it.
                     
                    • Agree Agree x 5
                    • Like Like x 4
                    • Watts4me

                      Active Member
                      Expand Collapse

                      Joined:
                      Nov 24, 2016
                      Messages:
                      188
                      Likes Received:
                      54
                      Trophy Points:
                      28
                      Gender:
                      Male
                      City & State/Province:
                      Houston
                      Awesome post!
                       
                      • Agree Agree x 2
                      • garsh

                        Dis Member
                        Moderator
                        Expand Collapse

                        Joined:
                        Apr 4, 2016
                        Messages:
                        2,686
                        Likes Received:
                        1,509
                        Trophy Points:
                        113
                        Gender:
                        Male
                        City & State/Province:
                        Pittsburgh PA
                        Country:
                        Country
                        Another way to look at it is: Tesla is comparing the cars that are available to order now. That's still not quite correct, since you can only order the large battery, but it does say 215+ :p
                         
                      • JMart

                        New Member
                        Expand Collapse

                        Joined:
                        Sep 12, 2017
                        Messages:
                        2
                        Likes Received:
                        1
                        Trophy Points:
                        3
                        Gender:
                        Male
                        City & State/Province:
                        Carmel, IN
                        Country:
                        Country
                        Voluntarily lowering the range could also result in fewer battery warranty claims down the road
                         
                        • Agree Agree x 2
                        • Troy

                          Active Member
                          Expand Collapse

                          Joined:
                          Sep 18, 2017
                          Messages:
                          26
                          Likes Received:
                          46
                          Trophy Points:
                          13
                          City & State/Province:
                          London
                          Country:
                          Country
                          #13 Troy, Oct 6, 2017
                          Last edited: Oct 6, 2017
                          Hi, everybody. I want to comment on something that might surprise people in the next few months when the EPA rated range of the Model 3 80D and Model 3 P80D are released. It is likely that these cars will share the 310 miles number for a few months. In other words, it is likely that we will see this scenario for a few months:

                          220 mi EPA rated range for the Model 3 55
                          220 mi EPA rated range for the Model 3 55D
                          310 mi EPA rated range for the Model 3 80
                          310 mi EPA rated range for the Model 3 80D
                          310 mi EPA rated range for the Model 3 P80D

                          EPA rules don't require a subconfiguration to have its own EPA test as long as its sales don't exceed 33% of that category. In other words, all 80 kWh Model 3s can use the 310 miles number until the Model 3 80D reaches 33% of 80 kWh sales. This could take until August 2018. So don't be surprised.

                          This doesn't mean Tesla is taking cells out of the batteries of dual motor versions. This is just a technicality Tesla is able to make use of. For example, in 2013 when they had the Model S 85/P85/P85+, all three cars shared the 265 mi EPA rated range even though there was only one test done in 2012. I think Tesla will make use of this because their estimator shows 220 and 310 miles for dual motor versions.

                          The Model 3 80D will eventually have its own EPA test. My guess is, it will score 344 miles EPA and Tesla will voluntarily lower it to either 320 or 310 miles. This doesn't mean the car would actually have 344 miles real world range on average and Tesla is making it look like 310 or 320 miles. No, that's not the case because EPA rated range is already about 9% too optimistic.

                          For example, the Model S 75D has 259 miles EPA rated range but Consumer Reports tested the range at 65 mph (see this video) and they scored 235 miles. That means the EPA rated range is 235/259= 90.7% of real-world range at 65 mph. The voluntary reductions mean Model 3's advertised range will be much closer to real-world range than other Teslas. If Consumer Reports tests the Model 3 80, I think it will score 298 miles at 65 mph which would be 96.1% of advertised range. The Model 3 80D would score 309 miles.

                          Therefore voluntary reductions are a good thing in terms of making the advertised range numbers more realistic but the problem is, they make the Model S and Model 3 advertised range numbers uncomparable and misleading. Therefore I predict that the Model 3 80 and 80D will achieve more range than any 100 kWh Model S in hypermiling and the Model 3 80D will complete a cross-country trip in a shorter time than the Model S 100D.
                           
                          • Informative Informative x 6
                          • Like Like x 1
                          • Troy

                            Active Member
                            Expand Collapse

                            Joined:
                            Sep 18, 2017
                            Messages:
                            26
                            Likes Received:
                            46
                            Trophy Points:
                            13
                            City & State/Province:
                            London
                            Country:
                            Country
                            #14 Troy, Oct 15, 2017 at 3:00 AM
                            Last edited: Oct 15, 2017 at 5:02 AM
                            Hi, everybody. Last week I made two predictions. One was about hypermiling and the other about cross-country trips. See the last sentence in my previous message. Now Teslarati reports that a Model 3 80 just broke the cross-country trip record in 51h 17m. The previous record was 51h 47m. Of course, the Model 3 80D will score even better because it has more range and shorter supercharge sessions than the Model 3 80.
                             
                            • Like Like x 1
                            • KarenRei

                              Active Member
                              Expand Collapse

                              Joined:
                              Jul 27, 2017
                              Messages:
                              103
                              Likes Received:
                              128
                              Trophy Points:
                              43
                              Gender:
                              Female
                              City & State/Province:
                              Reykjavík
                              Country:
                              Country
                              Please don't call it a "Model 3 80" or "Model 3 55". That's not it's name, you're only going to cause confusion. Their names are "LR" and "SR". You don't make up names for models of cars because you don't like the manufacturer's naming scheme.
                               
                              • Agree Agree x 11
                              • Kbm3

                                Active Member
                                Expand Collapse

                                Joined:
                                May 24, 2017
                                Messages:
                                65
                                Likes Received:
                                24
                                Trophy Points:
                                8
                                City & State/Province:
                                Baton Rouge, La.
                                Country:
                                Country
                                i thought the CR test was debunked because they didn’t charge to 100% (and there was some other flaw I can’t remember)?
                                 
                              • roflwaffle

                                Member
                                Expand Collapse

                                Joined:
                                Sep 25, 2017
                                Messages:
                                5
                                Likes Received:
                                0
                                Trophy Points:
                                1
                                City & State/Province:
                                SoCal CA
                                Country:
                                Country
                                I think a manufacturer has to use different test for sufficiently different drivetrains. Tesla used two test groups for the S in 2015, one for RWD and one for AWD.

                                https://iaspub.epa.gov/otaqpub/display_file.jsp?docid=34291&flag=1
                                https://iaspub.epa.gov/otaqpub/display_file.jsp?docid=34295&flag=1

                                Course, they can still bring the EPA rated range down at their discretion, but I'm pretty sure the CSI submission has to be accurate.
                                 
                              • Cloxxki

                                Active Member
                                Expand Collapse

                                Joined:
                                Jun 30, 2017
                                Messages:
                                95
                                Likes Received:
                                16
                                Trophy Points:
                                8
                                Gender:
                                Male
                                City & State/Province:
                                Rotterdam
                                Country:
                                Country
                                Also interesting: will Tesla have the Model 3 LR just reflect around 310 mi when it's at 100%, or use the measured consumption as typical, resulting in a 334 mi shown range?

                                If Tesla took their time developing a really economical RWD motor for Model 3, more so than in Model S (and I do understand this to be true), there are fewer heat losses present in Model 3 non-D EPA cycles, and thus less range to be won by cleverly sharing the work between it and which-ever front motor will be placed.
                                Is there data of heat losses as a percentage of total available capacity over an EPA dyno cycle, Model S RWD vs Model 3? I would expect Model 3 to have lower losses.
                                 
                              • Troy

                                Active Member
                                Expand Collapse

                                Joined:
                                Sep 18, 2017
                                Messages:
                                26
                                Likes Received:
                                46
                                Trophy Points:
                                13
                                City & State/Province:
                                London
                                Country:
                                Country
                                #19 Troy, Oct 15, 2017 at 8:24 PM
                                Last edited: Oct 15, 2017 at 8:53 PM
                                Hi. The car was fully charged. See the first bullet point item here. The Bolt beat the Model S 75D and Tesla wasn't happy about that and they had some objections. However, Tesla is aware that the EPA rated range is too high. In fact, Tesla does not use EPA rated range anywhere outside of North America. Instead, they use a range unit they created called "Typical range". A new Model S 75D displays 241 miles Typical Range at 100% charge everywhere outside of North America.

                                We have the following range numbers for the Model S 75D:

                                Model S 75D range:
                                259 miles Source: EPA (This is city and highway combined range)
                                241 miles Source: Tesla (The Model S 75D displays 241 mi range outside of North America)
                                235 miles Source: Consumer Reports (this is range at 65 mph)
                                232 miles Source: Survey data. (This is based on lifetime average energy efficiency numbers. See cell H85 here.)
                                 
                                • Informative Informative x 2
                                • Like Like x 1
                                • Troy

                                  Active Member
                                  Expand Collapse

                                  Joined:
                                  Sep 18, 2017
                                  Messages:
                                  26
                                  Likes Received:
                                  46
                                  Trophy Points:
                                  13
                                  City & State/Province:
                                  London
                                  Country:
                                  Country
                                  #20 Troy, Oct 15, 2017 at 8:51 PM
                                  Last edited: Oct 15, 2017 at 9:05 PM
                                  Hi, @roflwaffle. If I understand correctly, your argument is, the 33% rule wouldn't allow Tesla to use the 310 mi EPA for Model 3 80/80D/P80D even when the 80D is still below 33% of sales because of the motor difference. I guess that's possible. I don't have any objections to this argument. The voluntary reductions make this point irrelevant.

                                  What I wanted to point out was the fact that, even if Tesla and the EPA say that the Model 3 80D has 310 miles rated range (like the estimator implies), the car will still have about 10 miles more real-world range than the Model 3 80. If your version is correct and they end up having a second test for the Model 3 80D early on (maybe in May 2018), it might score around 344 mi and Tesla could voluntarily lower that to 310 or 320 miles.

                                  [​IMG]
                                   
                                  • Like Like x 1

                                  Share This Page

                                  Model 3 Owners Club © 2017. All rights reserved.
                                  Model 3 Owners Club (M3OC) is an enthusiast club and is not affiliated with Tesla Motors or the Tesla Motors Club Forum (TMC).
                                  All Tesla logos are trademarks or registered trademarks of Tesla Motors.