Model 3 Aftermarket Wheel Fitment - NA only

Discussion in 'Customizing & Modifications' started by garsh, Nov 21, 2017.

  1. garsh

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    GetYourWheels posted a thread over at TMC showing pictures of a Model 3 with aftermarket wheels (thanks to @Michael Russo for the original post, and to @Bokonon for the TMC post link). GetYourWheels replied to my request for some more specs. But first, some pictures:
    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    The wheels are Avant Garde M580.
    They are available in two different widths for the 20" rims you see installed here: 8.5" and 10".
    They installed 8.5" wheels up front, and 10" wheels in back. No spacers were used. Avant Garde's website does not list wheel offsets, unfortunately.
    Tires are 255/35R20 front and 275/30R20 rear.

    I think it looks pretty good, but we need a photo looking down the side of the car before we know how well these wheels fit to the fenders. I'd also like to point out that these particular wheels are also available in 19"x8.5" and 19"x9.5" sizes, which might be better suited to the Model 3.
     
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  2. SoFlaModel3

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    I really like the look of these rims, though having maxed out my budget I can safely assume they’re more than the 19” sport wheel upgrade price of $1,500 so I’ll have to pass in favor of the OEM upgrade. I also literally have no where to store 4 OEM 18” rims with tires.
     
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  3. garsh

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    Digging a little further, here's GetYourWheel's ordering page for the Avant Garde M580:
    https://www.getyourwheels.com/view-wheel/avant-garde-wheels/avant-garde-m580-bespoke

    It looks like it can be ordered in several different offsets (and bolt patterns, and colors), so that's good news.
    Prices appear to be:
    • 19" for $375.00 (both widths), $1500 for set of four
    • 20" for $537.50 (both widths), $2150 for set of four
    So not _too_ expensive. You do have to pay for tires on top of that price though.
     
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  4. SoFlaModel3

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    Not bad at all. Let’s say the rubber is $250/corner on 19s and you’re at $2,500 all in.

    I’m sure many will consider it!
     
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  5. telero

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    I'm pretty sure you could get at least $1000 for the 18" OEM takeoffs. If you get them and sell them instead of getting the 19" OEMs, you're at the $2500 for the aftermarkets. I'd pay the $1000 for a second set of 18s.
     
  6. SoFlaModel3

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    Probably but then when you’re done with the car you don’t have OEMs to put back on.

    Definitely what I would do though if I was going for aftermarket wheels.
     
  7. Ct200h

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    My plan is to order with the 19”s and then get a set of take offs 18” or a set of 17” afternakert for some nice winter tires.
    Not sure if 17” will fit but I bet they will and go with a 215/55/17 Michelin Xice xi3
     
  8. Sandy

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    #8 Sandy, Nov 24, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2017
    One issue that arises with aftermarket wheels is the center bore. Model 3 stock wheel center bore is 64.1mm. When the wheel is fitted to the hub the hub fits tightly into the center bore of the wheel as it’s effectively the same size. This puts the load on the hub and off the wheel studs. It also ensures the wheel is not off center. Many aftermarket wheels use a larger center bore and require hub centric rings. These steel or plastic rings slip over the hub and are sized to fit the wheel center bore. When buying aftermarket it’s a good idea to know in advance if the wheels your buying need hub centric rings. Example not an endorsement: TSportline M3 wheel bores are 64.1mm. No rings required. Personally I don’t like hub centric rings and would only buy wheels that are 64.1mm wheel bores.
    Without the wheel bore being a tight fit with the hub the entire wheel instead of being hub centric is lug centric and the entire load is on the threaded lugs and tapered lugnuts. Not a good idea. Here’s a vid explaining it:



    Here are examples of hub centric rings:

    http://www.hubcentric-rings.com/why_hub_centric_rings/
     
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  9. Mad Hungarian

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    #9 Mad Hungarian, Nov 30, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2017
    Pardon my wheel-nerdiness, but I must elaborate a little here...

    Although it's instinctive to think that in the absence of direct wheel center bore to hub protrusion contact it's the studs or bolts that are somehow carrying vehicle's weight, in actual fact nothing of the sort is happening. The need to ensure a tight fit of wheel's center bore hole onto the hub is simply to ensure that wheel stays centered during installation. Once the lugs are torqued though the hub's horizontal protrusion surface and wheel's hub bore surface are just along for the ride. This is because the clamping load between the wheel's mounting pad and the vertical mating hub/rotor surface is so immense that the two parts then essentially behave as one welded assembly, with the vertical mounting pad, hub and rotor surfaces now carrying the load. If you've never seen the calculation of the clamping forces at work here, it's worth having a look.
    In this case let's look at the 14x1.5mm fasteners as found on all Teslas. Note the recommended torque value used in this calculator came out to 131.78 ft/lbs, but that's close enough to Tesla's service recommendation of 129 ft/lbs to work here:
    upload_2017-11-30_15-26-12.png

    So the clamping force each stud/nut is applying to the wheel/hub/rotor sandwich is approximately 6506 kg, or about 14,343 lbs. Multiply that by the 5 lugs and you get a total clamping force of 32,530 kg, or 71,715 lbs. I can assure you from practical experience that even the strongest wheel will fail spectacularly long before you reach the forces required to move the wheel even a fraction of a mm in relation to the hub surface. Want further proof? Have a close look inside the lug holes of any alloy wheel that's been in service for a good period of time. The inside walls of the small hole at the base should be nice and smooth. If they were ever to come in contact with the stud or bolt, as would have to be the case if they were supporting the vertical loads, you would see very pronounced galling from the jagged surface of the steel threads imprinting themselves into the softer aluminum. I have only ever seen this in cases where the lugs came loose. That is in fact the only time the studs or bolts will ever carry any part of the vehicle's loads (and usually not for long... :eek:)
    So yes, for convenience's sake it's nice to have a finely machined direct-fit wheel that doesn't require a centering ring. But having centering rings in no way compromises the wheel's job as a structural element in supporting all the static and dynamic loads the car and road can throw at it. Once it's correctly torqued, it pretty much becomes one with the hub.
     
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  10. Mad Hungarian

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    Garsh I have to throw you some big props for posting this, as I'm going with Midnight Silver and I that's potentially the exact wheel design I might put on it, as we have a near identical model in our Fast Wheels brand called the FC04. It's a little darker though, just a shade lighter than the car.
    (apologies for the following shameless plug :oops:)
    Available in 18x8.0/18x9.0/18x10.0/19x8.5/19x9.5/20x8.5/20x9.5
    Flowformed construction (same as the OE Model 3 wheels) so nice and light, the 18x8.0 weighs only 18.8 lbs

    upload_2017-11-30_16-9-55.png
     
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  11. garsh

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    Available in 18x10???
    Wow. I'd like someone to post a picture of how that looks mounted on the rear of a Model 3. :)

    Is 19x10 not available?
     
  12. Mad Hungarian

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    If we use the +45 offset I think the 18x10 rear stance would be just about the same as what you see here for the 20x10. Of course you wouldn't have that lovely big-diameter look, but you'd save a fair amount of weight and have a noticeably smoother ride.

    Re 19x10, as we already make it a 9.5" it wouldn't make sense to do the tooling for a new size with just an extra half-inch, we'd likely go with a 10.5" or 11". So far not enough demand, but that could always change...
     
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  13. ahagge

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    @Mad Hungarian - nice wheels! Does your company plan to add Model 3 to your website's configurator anytime soon? I'm dying to see some alternative 18" wheels...
     
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  14. Mad Hungarian

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    #14 Mad Hungarian, Dec 1, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2017
    Well we have enough data to make some initial application recommendations but we would need access to a car to photograph for our image configurator to be able to show them on the car. The studio we use is in the Anaheim CA area, so if anyone who has their car (or will be getting it soon) wants to let us shoot it, we can make it happen!
     
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  15. KennethK

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    @Mad Hungarian , that wheel says "flow formed". is that the manufacturing method? and how do "machined" wheels and "low pressure cast" process compare?
     
  16. Ct200h

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    I think a set of 17”wheels for winter tire use could sell well.
    Those who purchase the $1500 sport wheel option at order time could get a set of 17’s and mount some nice winter tires on them.
    Any 17 fitments yet?
     
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  17. Mad Hungarian

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    #17 Mad Hungarian, Dec 4, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2017
    Flow forming is indeed the manufacturing method.
    Here's quick breakdown on the most commonly used manufacturing methods for single-piece alloys and how they compare:

    Gravity Cast: Molten alloy is poured into the mold from the top (or the side, in the case of a tilt-casting machine) and then cooled by water jackets. The mold then splits apart and the solidified wheel is removed, dunked in a water bath for more cooling, then sent on its way to get heat-treated, machined, painted, etc. The most common and least expensive way to get the job done, and when designed right makes for a good, safe wheel that will still be significantly lighter than the equivalent size steel unit.

    Low-pressure Cast: Very similar to above, but the molten alloy is pumped directly into the mold from below via a transfer pipe from the furnace. This helps reduces the possibility of air pockets and changes the pattern & timeline of how the alloy cools in the mold, which can be helpful in achieving the desired mechanical strength properties of certain designs.

    Flow Forming (also referred to as Rim Rolling or Rotary Forging : Starts with the complete center section being cast using one of the above methods but instead of coming out with a normal full-size finished barrel, that area is cast to be much narrower and thicker. Looks much like a motorcycle wheel when it comes out of the mold. This is then sent to flow forming machine where it is re-heated and then put on a steel mandrel in the shape of the final barrel and made to spin. A robot with two big arms and rollers hands then "grabs" the stumpy, thick barrel part of the casting, pressing in with high force and pulling down it from both sides to create the final thinner, full width barrel and rim edge shapes. Reminiscent of how a vase is made on a pottery wheel, except upside down. Here's good little video overview of the process
    The advantage of flow forming is that it achieves much of the high strength-to-weight ratio of a fully forged wheel at a fraction of the price, and it also achieves a surprisingly similar performance improvement as all of the weight reduction is achieved is in the barrel area, where it has a much greater effect in reducing inertia due to how far away it is from the center of rotation. (Dirty little automotive performance secret: reducing tire weight helps even more, as it sits even further out from the center of rotation). This process is also used in creating the barrel shape for fully forged wheels (see below). I should also note that this is apparently the method used for the OE Model 3 wheels.

    Forged (also referred to as Fully Forged): Although there are a few variation on the theme, the general process involves heating up a solid aluminum cylinder (affectionately known as a "pancake") and then running it through a series of very large high power forging presses to smash it into the desired shape. The barrel is often formed using the flow-forming process described above. The wheel is then sent off to be machined into its exact final shape, painted, etc. This results in a very dense aluminum structure with excellent grain pattern and makes for the lightest possible wheel of any type. Also one of the most expensive.

    Billet Forged: Here the process begins with an aluminum pancake that has been pre-forged and is then put into a 3 or 5 axis vertical milling machine and the wheel is then carved out in painstakingly detailed fashion, like fine sculpture. Offers many of the same weight and performance advantages of the regular forged construction but doesn't require the hugely expensive tooling for all the additional forging steps. Perfect for one-off designs or low volume production runs. On the flip side, this takes hours and hours to do per piece, so a poor choice for high volume runs.

    Machined: This can have two meanings.
    1. Regardless of the construction method used, all wheels undergo a number of machining processes to get to their final form. The face, the barrel, the backside of the spokes, the center bore and the front side cap bore are generally all turned on a lathe to both achieve their exact design shape and ensure the wheel is as close to being perfectly round as possible. Milling machines are also used to define certain surfaces such as lug pockets and spoke or other surface accents, and drills are used for the PCD (bolt pattern).
    2. There is a popular cosmetic finish called "Machined", where after painting the wheel is sent back to a lathe to have some or all of the paint cut away from its facial surfaces to create something like a polished look but with what look up close like microscopic record grooves in the surface. These very fine grooves allow a protective clear coat to be applied afterwards to keep the wheel looking good for years with little maintenance. The forerunner of this look, simply referred to as "Polished" is a little closer to chrome in appearance but a real PITA to maintain. The problem is it's really difficult to get any kind of protective coating to stick to the mirror-like surface, so it is almost always delivered in its raw aluminum state and you have to constantly buff it to keep it from tarnishing. "Machining" has delivered us from those days.
     
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  18. Mad Hungarian

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    #18 Mad Hungarian, Dec 4, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2017
    Welllllllll, whether 17" will be possible is still open to debate. There are three potential issues.

    1. There is a stud that protrudes from the bottom of the steering knuckle on the front suspension that may limit how far we can minus-size. So far I'm leaning towards non-dealbreaker status for this one based on the pics I've seen so far. I covered this a while back in another thread.

    2. There are two different size front brakes.
    Now I went AWOL for a while here so I'm not sure if anyone picked this up already, but the owner's manual clearly shows two different front sizes, as follows:
    upload_2017-12-4_12-53-3.png
    Now almost every car I've ever measured with 320mm rotors will take a 17" with ease. That isn't going to be the problem. But the 355mm "Plus" fronts are almost certainly an issue. If you get those, even 18" is potentially tight.
    But what is this "Plus" package? Is "Plus" the new "P"???
    @TrevP you on that??
    So far, in just about all the images I've seen where one can make out the brake hardware, the fronts look to be the 320mm "Base" size. I say this based on seeing the space between the wheels and the front rotor and also the fact that the rear rotors look to be bigger, which corresponds to what's listed above. And also leads me to point 3.

    3. The rear brakes may be the party killer on any version.
    I've yet to see any super definitive images, but the ones I have seen tell me that a 17" might be REAL tight on the back of any of these cars. I reserve final judgment on that until I can 3D scan one.
    Any takers?? :cool:
     
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  19. Prodigal Son

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    If I can't get my hands on a second set of aeros to use for my winter tires, I'll be hoping to find something reasonably priced for ski trips. Don't care about looks, just a stock sized reasonably-priced set of 18s that don't require any adaptors or other BS.
     
  20. zosoisnotaword

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    I'm sure you'll be able to grab a set from someone with custom wheels. I know I'll be selling mine on here when the time comes.
     

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