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Model 3 HVAC system patent

Discussion in 'Tech Talk' started by TrevP, Sep 18, 2017.

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  1. TrevP

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    #1 TrevP, Sep 18, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2017
    • Informative Informative x 4
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    • SoFlaModel3

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      Very cool and to your tweet... no way this isn’t on S/X soon!
       
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      • JWardell

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        Interestingly, clicking the google link to the patent, the images are all blocked. Thanks for posting them. Saved to read through the whole thing later.

        I hypthesized this worked much like the Dyson "bladeless" fans air multiplier system. It seems similar.
         
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        • Skione65

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          This all came out already...think I read it on electrek....@JWardell check it out there...the patent info and all images were readable there.

          Ski
           
        • JWardell

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          It all shows correctly on google's "new" patent site.

          https://patents.google.com/patent/US20170253107A1/en

          I read through it all, and aside from being very repetitive, it basically lays out ideas for first a "high aspect ratio" vent...meaning a very wide and not very tall slot; a secondary slot below that when combined can deflect it; and varying the ratio of air speed can change the angle of deflection.

          I believe there are three separate examples of systems, so one might be the model 3, the others might be upcoming models, but it's tough to tell. Or the others could just be simplified models for example.
           
        • Brett

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          Can anyone tell from the patent if the air speed coming out of the secondary vent is controlled by damper or by a varying a fan speed?

          I am really hoping for an oscillate setting sometime down the road. I can believe that Tesla would not want to increase the wear (and shorten the lifetime) of the horizontal deflection fins by making them oscillate (and therefore operate continuously) but if the vertical direction is just controlled by a fan speed then that might be oscillate-able without a maintenance impact. Vertical only oscillation would be better then no oscillation.
           
        • JWardell

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          The patent shows a few different solutions, but in every case, the whole system has just one fan. Dampers or valves are used to control flow volume through the secondary lower vent. There's no reason why they can't have automatic oscillation in the vertical and horizontal directions as everything is controlled by the computer. Assuming of course they chose hardware that is designed for continuous use.
           
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          • Brett

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            Thanks @JWardell that's what I was afraid of.

            My assumption is that they won't have chosen hardware (servos, etc) meant for continuous use and they will be hesitant to implement any feature that might add to repairs and warranty claims. I'm still hoping though.
             
          • JWardell

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            Remember Tesla is smarter than they appear to be at any given moment, and I think they learned about durability issues on early Model Ses.
             
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            • arnis

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              There are servo-motors (flap-moving mechanisms) on the market that are extremely reliable.
              I have a lot of experience with some BMW-s that have actuators that are constantly doing
              something while vehicle is being used. Out of hundreds and hundreds of vehicles I've worked on
              not a single servo has ever failed. And these vehicles were produced between 1996-2004 (there
              were some unreliable at 2004-2006). But what can fail is the flap itself. It doesn't literally fail, it starts to
              squeak due to loss of lubricant or dust accumulation on surfaces, that should be clean.

              Though it appears that complexity of M3 system is on par with BMW 3-series premium HVAC system,
              with (likely) additional function of "driver only". Therefore reliability should be average.

              Air speed is controlled automatically with pretty complex maps for fan speed and flaps.
              It is likely (update later?) that air speed (for at least face vents) will be adjustable separately. Otherwise
              clicking on the air directions will result in "flap open" position. And depending on fan speed, that might be
              too much for face or too little for feet.

              It's sad that there is no full schematic for the whole M3 air distribution available.
              I would love to rate the efficiency.
               
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              • greatwiseone

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                Just a patent application that's been published. No patent has actually granted yet.
                 
              • NRG4All

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                I am curious about how the M3 will somehow be using the motor as it heat source. Does this mean no resistance coils or heat pump involved? Maybe someone has already posted an answer and I just need to find it.
                 
              • arnis

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                Motor will be used to heat the coolant loop. Tesla doesn't use coolant to heat the cabin.
                Cabin is heated by PTC element (not exactly resistance coil, but something similar).
                Tesla still does not support heat pump idea.

                Well, Model S/X can use drivetrain heat to warm the battery. Though there is not a lot of heat generated if driven normally.
                Now we know, that Model 3 can just energize drivetrain (with no rotation) and generate as much heat as it wants.
                Imagine two coils inside the motor trying to spin it in opposite directions. Nothing happens. Motor is stuck, and all
                energy used to turn it will end up as heat. Which will immediately be extracted by coolant. And dumped into battery.
                 
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                • KarenRei

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                  I'm disappointed by this. I had been under the impression that the plan was to use multiple fans rather than servos. The servo approach doesn't look nearly as graceful.
                   
                • arnis

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                  Fan takes at least 100x more room than a servo. Fan also needs more ducting around it.
                   
                • KarenRei

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                  There's a large amount of ducting regardless; fans take up no more space if they sit inside a duct. Fans are super-cheap commodity items. Smaller ones (aka, to aim the main stream, if that's the design chosen) don't require controllers; you can control them directly from a motherboard. While a cheapo fan may eventually suffer bearing wear, a quality fan, pushing filtered air, should be able to operate basically forever. And you have to provide the fan power either way, whether it's one large fan, or any combination of fans.
                   
                • arnis

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                  These axial fans don't cut it.
                  [​IMG]
                  Fan on this picture is 210 times less powerful than average vehicle will use.
                  HVAC design is actually very complicated.
                  Also fans can't stop air from flowing through them.
                  Very simple Nissan Leaf heater box
                  [​IMG]
                  Not possible to not blow without flaps. Maybe if fans would be bi-directional. That would funny.
                   
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                  • KarenRei

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                    1) The design is for a powerful main stream and a weak side stream to redirect the main stream by creating either a high or low pressure zone beside it; it doesn't need a large volume flow rate for the side stream.

                    2) You can't use a "single" anything (fans, actuated vanes, etc - whatever design approach you choose) when you're talking two zones with split X-Y aiming of airstreams. You're talking multiple. Probably 8.
                     
                  • Michael Russo

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                    You folks all amaze me. In a good sense, truly... :)

                    This simple man is really only only looking at effectiveness and reliability... without giving a split second of thought to ‘what’s in the black box’... both criteria by the way have never made me lose a minute of sleep in my many Beemers over the past decade... ;)
                     
                  • arnis

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                    The secondary air stream must be at around the same pressure as the main stream to be able to deflect the main stream.
                    We are talking aerodynamics:innocent:

                    Also fan's can't stop airflow.
                     

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