Performance brakes (or not).

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UncleT

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#1
So is the "base" Performance model without the Performance Upgrade going to have the same brakes as the standard RWD and AWD models?
 

thredge

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#2
So is the "base" Performance model without the Performance Upgrade going to have the same brakes as the standard RWD and AWD models?
We've had some discussion on that is this thread over here if you want to join in.
https://model3ownersclub.com/thread...e-happening-per-elon.6849/page-29#post-116685

Short version, we are leaning toward that the larger rotors will come with the Performance Model, and that the "Performance Brake Calipers" listed under the wheels of the Performance Upgrade package just means Performance Red. Hoping we can get some clarification on that some time though. One of the strongest arguments was that Larger Brake Rotors wasn't a separate definitive bullet point on the Performance Upgrade package, and if they were higher quality brakes they would have called more specific attention to that in the package. On the other side however, the Performance Model also does not state anything about different brakes that we have seen.
 

UncleT

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#3
Thanks. Here's hoping upgraded brakes are included in the non-performance, performance version. Would actually rather not have the red calipers.
 

marusan

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#4
I hacked on the compositor to generate a couple of images at the highest resolution, one with 19" wheels and one with 20". Who knows if the compositor is even remotely accurate, but I found:

19":
rims 484px / 19in = 25.47 px/in
rotors 334px * 25.47 px/in = 13.11in (333mm)

20":
rims 507 px / 20in = 25.35 px/in
rotors 348 px * 25.35 px/in = 13.72in (349mm)

So, if you believe the images, the rotors are about 0.61" larger in diameter on the 20-inch wheels.

Oddly, an illusion makes it seem like they're much larger.

I've attached my images should anyone want to do their own analysis.
 

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thredge

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#5
I hacked on the compositor to generate a couple of images at the highest resolution, one with 19" wheels and one with 20". Who knows if the compositor is even remotely accurate, but I found:

19":
rims 484px / 19in = 25.47 px/in
rotors 334px * 25.47 px/in = 13.11in (333mm)

20":
rims 507 px / 20in = 25.35 px/in
rotors 348 px * 25.35 px/in = 13.72in (349mm)

So, if you believe the images, the rotors are about 0.61" larger in diameter on the 20-inch wheels.

Oddly, an illusion makes it seem like they're much larger.

I've attached my images should anyone want to do their own analysis.
I think everyone knows the standard cars and the Performance Upgrade optioned cars have different sized brakes. We just need the answer to the question if the Performance Model has them too. Here's hoping, I configured mine with the 18" Aeros for now.
 

alcoolaid

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#6
Yeah, the main question is what brakes will be on the P3D without the performance upgrades package.

Will it have the standard brakes like on the LR RWD/AWD or will it have larger rotors and larger calipers (just not red)?

Or will all the P3D's have the same brakes regardless if you chose 18" or 20" wheels....
 

thredge

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#7
Yeah, the main question is what brakes will be on the P3D without the performance upgrades package.

Will it have the standard brakes like on the LR RWD/AWD or will it have larger rotors and larger calipers (just not red)?

Or will all the P3D's have the same brakes regardless if you chose 18" or 20" wheels....
The felling I have seen elsewhere bu people much more knowledgeable than I is that the caliper could just be the same one, just with a bigger rotor to improve performance. I will be excited to get an answer. Don't suppose calling one of the support numbers for sales could get us any information?
 

alcoolaid

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#8
The felling I have seen elsewhere bu people much more knowledgeable than I is that the caliper could just be the same one, just with a bigger rotor to improve performance. I will be excited to get an answer. Don't suppose calling one of the support numbers for sales could get us any information?
Tried calling earlier but they are too busy and said to try calling later. I did ask one of the sales reps at my local store, have to see what they say when they get back to me.
 

JeffC

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#9
Does the Performance Model 3 without the Performance Upgrade option have the same larger brake rotors as with the 20 inch wheels? I had no luck answering this question by checking with Tesla sales folks I know, tweeting Elon, tweeting Tesla, etc. And Tesla's Model 3 sales phone is full, etc.

marusan's analysis above is useful, but may I ask you to try it with this actual photo of the first production PM3 coming off the assembly line?
Also if Sasha's analysis is correct: https://www.mountainpassperformance.com/product/mpp-page-mill-365mm-big-brake-kit/ and https://www.mountainpassperformance.com/gridlife-and-the-first-model-3-in-competition-worldwide/ the caliper probably makes much less difference to race track performance than the larger rotor. My bet is that the Performance Model 3 caliper is the same as standard, and the Performance Upgrade option caliper is also the same but red.

Folks should keep in mind that the larger rotor likely makes zero difference in street driving, but radically improves brake fade on the race track.
 
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Little1er

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#10
I called 3 different showrooms today that told me the $5,000 performance package adds different calipers that come on the standard performance model. I still don't know what to believe, but I thought I would share.

I'm also waiting to hear back from Tesla on the specifications for what comes on each model. Still waiting for official confirmation.
 

JeffC

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#11
I called 3 different showrooms today that told me the $5,000 performance package adds different calipers that come on the standard performance model. I still don't know what to believe, but I thought I would share.

I'm also waiting to hear back from Tesla on the specifications for what comes on each model. Still waiting for official confirmation.
There's a strong possibility that the calipers are the same across all Model 3s, but a different red color for Performance.

Deeper dive: https://www.mountainpassperformance.com/product/mpp-page-mill-365mm-big-brake-kit/ and https://www.mountainpassperformance.com/gridlife-and-the-first-model-3-in-competition-worldwide/

The larger rotors make much more of a difference than the calipers, but generally ONLY for the race track.
 

Little1er

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#12
There's a strong possibility that the calipers are the same across all Model 3s, but a different red color for Performance.

Deeper dive: https://www.mountainpassperformance.com/product/mpp-page-mill-365mm-big-brake-kit/ and https://www.mountainpassperformance.com/gridlife-and-the-first-model-3-in-competition-worldwide/

The larger rotors make much more of a difference than the calipers, but generally ONLY for the race track.

I completely agree that a lot of performance can be found with enlarging the rotors. I know we are all speculating here, but the pad contact area on the rotor looks larger on the P model, indicating different calipers. We'll have to wait and see.

FWIW, I really like the MPP rotor design. If the same calipers are used throughout all models, there's no question I'm un-checking the $5,000 performance package box and using MPP instead. The upgraded brakes are my only incentive to add the package, but I am one of the few owners that will actually track their M3.
 

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JeffC

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#13
I completely agree that a lot of performance can be found with enlarging the rotors. I know we are all speculating here, but the pad contact area on the rotor looks larger on the P model, indicating different calipers. We'll have to wait and see.

FWIW, I really like the MPP rotor design. If the same calipers are used throughout all models, there's no question I'm un-checking the $5,000 performance package box and using MPP instead. The upgraded brakes are my only incentive to add the package, but I am one of the few owners that will actually track their M3.
MPP uses the factory caliper, but a larger rotor. Sasha reported no brake fade at all with the larger rotor and factory caliper on a race lap.

Sasha did upgrade the brake pads (to Ferrodo DS2500) and brake fluid (to Motul 660) for the track. All pretty common to do for track use. He said that even without the pad change, the larger rotor works much better and fades less, due to the much larger heat capacity and heat dissipation of the larger rotor.


Regarding the rest of the specifications for Performance Model 3, the main one is more power; how much is unspecified, but it's enough to do 0-60 in 3.5 seconds or less, which is significantly quicker than a BMW M3. Elon tweeted:



IMO the particular details are much less important than the results. The results seem good.

Given the apparent lower ride height in the configurator, videos, etc, by definition Performance Model 3 must have stiffer springs and dampers (shock absorbers), and it probably has stiffer anti-roll bars (sway bars), also, since all are extremely common in this type of tuning, as we know.

We're trying to find out if the larger rotor fits in the 18 inch Aero wheel. If it's 355 mm, it may. Logistically it would be simplest if Performance Model 3 had the same brakes, even if Aero wheels were selected. In other words, there's a possibility the Performance Upgrade option only adds red calipers of the same type as stock, and all Performance Model 3s come with the larger rotors. However this is unclear at present. I too have tried to ask Tesla in multiple ways about this question. No answers yet. They could probably be more transparent with the specifications, but as usual things may be somewhat in a state of flux.

Stock rotor is a smallish 320 mm. But for normal street driving, 320 mm is adequate, especially given regenerative braking.


As I currently interpret things, the $5k Performance Upgrade option includes exactly:

1. Red calipers (possibly of the same size). The configurator says "performance caliper", and not "performance brakes" or "performance rotors". This suggests only caliper is different. It may only be different in color.

2. 20 inch wheels, etc

3. Metal pedals

4. Lip spoiler

5. Top speed increase from 145 to 155 MPH.

Several of us think the top speed increase is actually made possible by the small spoiler improving aerodynamic stability at top speed. Model 3 has an extremely low drag coefficient, and even small changes can make a large difference in a low drag car, especially at top speed.


And yes, we've been studying and nerding out about this for a while. ;) Currently some of this is speculation due to lack of clarity from Tesla. Surely more information will be discovered later, in particular as the first Performance Models get delivered.
 
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samson

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#14
Thanks @MelindaV

I see we all have the same question......regarding the 18" AERO wheels will fit the Performance MODEL 3 with Performance upgrade (bigger rotors and RED calipers).

Another concern I have is even if they fit, it would be very close......meaning the clearance between the caliper and the wheel rims that I am afraid small rocks can get stuck in between and damage it pretty badly.
 

systemBuilder

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#15
Guys, why is this B.S. still floating around?

The $5k Performance upgrade adds larger rotors. It was CONFIRMED by earlier versions of the owner's manual where they gave the specs for the larger rotors. It was CONFIRMED because 18" wheels DO NOT fit on the $5k Performance upgrade cars. Tesla has confirmed this to many customers. Please stop B.S.ing that both cars have the same rotors. They do not.
 

garsh

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#16
Guys, why is this B.S. still floating around?
Because you're replying to posts made OVER A MONTH AGO. Check the dates. Yes, we've obtained updated information since then.
Tesla has confirmed this to many customers.
I've been misled too often by well-meaning but incorrectly-informed Tesla sales staff to simply accept anything that they say without confirming it elsewhere.
Please stop B.S.ing that both cars have the same rotors. They do not.
You need to clarify:
  • AWD appears to use the same exact rotors and calipers as RWD.
  • Performance without the upgrade package also appears to use the same exact rotors and calipers as RWD.
For Performance with the Performance Upgrade package:
  • The rear rotors are the same diameter as on the other vehicles (335mm). It may still be a different rotor, but the diameter is the same.
  • The rear caliper is definitely larger, and appears to be the reason why 18s won't fit.
  • The front rotors are larger than on the other vehicles (355mm vs 320mm)
Reference: Model 3 Owner's Manual, page 140
 

JeffC

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#17
Guys, why is this B.S. still floating around?

The $5k Performance upgrade adds larger rotors. It was CONFIRMED by earlier versions of the owner's manual where they gave the specs for the larger rotors. It was CONFIRMED because 18" wheels DO NOT fit on the $5k Performance upgrade cars. Tesla has confirmed this to many customers. Please stop B.S.ing that both cars have the same rotors. They do not.
It's not B.S. Tesla took down the owner's manual reference to them for a while, then put it back. Perhaps they were still deciding the details at that time. There was an earlier period of time when the Performance Upgrade Option (PUO) brake specifications were unknown or unclear.

I went to my Tesla Store as soon as it got a Performance Model 3 with Performance Upgrade Option and physically measured the brakes:

https://model3ownersclub.com/thread...rade-option-part-deux.7745/page-2#post-129927

The fronts were confirmed as 355 mm.
 

JeffC

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#18
Because you're replying to posts made OVER A MONTH AGO. Check the dates. Yes, we've obtained updated information since then.
I've been misled too often by well-meaning but incorrectly-informed Tesla sales staff to simply accept anything that they say without confirming it elsewhere.
You need to clarify:
  • AWD appears to use the same exact rotors and calipers as RWD.
  • Performance without the upgrade package also appears to use the same exact rotors and calipers as RWD.
For Performance with the Performance Upgrade package:
  • The rear rotors are the same diameter as on the other vehicles (335mm). It may still be a different rotor, but the diameter is the same.
  • The rear caliper is definitely larger, and appears to be the reason why 18s won't fit.
  • The front rotors are larger than on the other vehicles (355mm vs 320mm)
Reference: Model 3 Owner's Manual, page 140
Agree on all of the above.