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Teslarati confirms high expectations

Discussion in 'Media' started by Michael Russo, Dec 12, 2016.

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  1. Michael Russo

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  2. Red Sage

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    I am an American. That means I have no class. This isn't a feudal society.

    The people who truly think that acquiring things allows them to trumpet their 'status' in society all remind of the folks that hang out in trendy nightclubs, who all remind me of the people I didn't like and couldn't get along with in high school.
     
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    • Michael Russo

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      Of course, @Red Sage , I fully agree with you... just funny that Teslarati is in California... ;)
       
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      • Red Sage

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        Many Californians are absolutely obsessed with 'status' for some reason. I don't know why. It seems weird to me. I'd have thought it would be more important to those in Chicago, Detroit, or New York. Idunno. Maybe it is a universal thing, and I just never really noticed how important it was to others, because it is of no consequence to me at all.
         
      • Michael Russo

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        Yeah, I guess that's what they call diversity....everywhere... and that's good too...! Then we decide who we want to hang out with! :cool:
         
      • Red Sage

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        Yeah. I made my best Friends while in college. Those guys are still close and dear to me. I haven't bothered to go to any of my high school reunions over the past 31 years.
         
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        • MichelT3

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          #7 MichelT3, Dec 15, 2016
          Last edited: May 19, 2017
          Let's please go back to the origin of this ramble about status. Which is nothing more than showing who we are.

          The Teslarati article said: "The Tesla Model 3 may very well become one of the most significant markers of status stability, with its associated components of having a college education, white-collar work, economic security, and home ownership. Soon, many upwardly mobile consumers will be adding “owning a Tesla” to that definition."

          The interesting point not being that people in general attach much value to status - which can't be denied - but that "owning a Tesla" is already seen as status by a large group of the professional population. An 'upstart' and 'deviant' American (which is not seen as an advantage in the rest of the world) car company achieving this position in a few years almost worldwide is a huge acomplishment. Evidence of the huge steps that Tesla is ahead of the other car makers.
           
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          • BigBri

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            Overall disliked the tone of the article. I get what shes saying but the 3 is going to be a car almost anyone can afford. You can use the ride sharing to offset costs or just the general savings of an EV alone will enable the car to almost pay for itself given time. I think most of us want one because it's such a compelling EV, not to try and show off to the neighbors.
             
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            • Red Sage

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              I do not deny that there are, from a certain perspective, definite advantages to that perception being held by potential Tesla Motors Customers. Nothing at all wrong with having a product line and brand image that is in many ways desirable to those who can afford to purchase them. Mostly, I'm noting that the concept of 'status' is not a motivating factor for ME at all, never has been, never will be. What this article does do is that it exposes something I had not considered (because I wouldn't) and that is how others will perceive the purchase once I have the Model ☰.

              A friend of mine chastised me for buying a Honda Accord EX Coupe a little over 25 years ago. He did so, because he presumed my reasons for doing so were entirely about 'status'. He assumed that I was 'part of the problem' where Americans were buying foreign cars and abandoning The BIG Three automakers in Detroit without due cause. He also went on and on about unions and jobs and other stuff... I eventually managed to stop his diatribe and note: 1) I don't give a [FLAMING FIG FART] about 'status' and that if I did I would have purchased something crappy like a Mercedes-Benz 190D or BMW 318i; 2) That I did MONTHS of research before getting the Accord comparing a wide range of vehicles before making the final decision; 3) I grew up in what was practically 'GM Land' and was a big fan of Chevrolet vehicles in particular, but in all the ways that matter most (price, fuel economy, emissions, performance, safety, reliability...) the Accord was simply the best vehicle available; 4) Certain cars were eliminated from contention either because they were ugly or only available as Sedans, when I wanted a proper five-place Coupe, not a 2+2 hatchback or luxoboat; and 5) I actually 'settled' for my FIRST choice, as I would have got an Acura Legend Coupe instead if I could afford it. Further, I pointed out that the main reason I got the Accord was that of all the foreign brand cars on the market, it was actually built in MARYSVILLE, OHIO and to my eye it LOOKED the most AMERICAN.

              Sure, I get emotional. But I make decisions in a manner I consider to be rational. I have wanted an electric car since I was five or six years old. The WANT is emotional. The REASON is rational. The other 'status' cars the Model ☰ will compete against, from Acura, Alfa Romeo, AUDI, BMW, Cadillac, Infiniti, Jaguar, Lexus, and Mercedes-Benz are not vehicles I would even begin to consider as a NEW purchase for myself. I might have got a used Cadillac ATS-V Coupe, BMW M235i, or Mercedes-AMG C63 Coupe if I could get a good deal on them perhaps five years from now, had Tesla not come along. But now? TESLA ALL THE WAY, BABY!
               
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              • Red Sage

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                +42! EXACTLY. The Ultimate Answer to the Ultimate Question of Life, the Universe, and Everything about "Why Is the Tone, Timbre, and Twist of this Article So... WRONG?" Yes. The Model ☰ has a tough audience to win. Yes. A lot of the heavy lifting has already been taken care of due to the success of the Tesla Roadster, Model S, and Model X. But even if some people have a mental checklist of acquisitions to achieve or arrive at a perceived level of 'status' that is a PERSONAL problem and has nothing to do with the product itself or the company that makes it.
                 
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                • MichelT3

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                  It really surprises me what negative associations you guys attach to the term 'status'. Which in my eyes is nothing but a normal human emotion to compare ourselves with other people.
                  Coming from people from the US, one of the most status oriented societies in the world, where everything is put in terms of money. "How much I'm worth" is something we Europeans would never say.
                  Anyway, I leave it at this. I will stop posting in this thread.
                   
                • Red Sage

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                  Interesting. Goodbye.
                   
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                  • Red Sage

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                    By the way...? The same friend chastised me a couple of years ago for being a Tesla Motors fan.

                    He expressed his belief that I probably only liked them because of the technology. I explained this was nothing new. I've always been technologically adept, but drivetrain agnostic as a 'car guy'. I reminded him that HE is the one that argues in favor of rear wheel drive, live axle leaf spring suspensions, with pushrod high displacement V8s as the epitome of fun driving. While I could accept a V16, V12, V10, V8, V6, Inline 6, Inline 5, Inline 4, Inline 3, Horizontal 4, Horizontal 6, Wankel... Front engine, mid engine, or rear engine... Front wheel drive, rear wheel drive, all wheel drive... I don't have an allegiance to a specific motor format, beyond preferring a normally aspirated ICE to a turbocharged, supercharged, or otherwise 'squeezed' power plant. Even with that, I don't really care what's under the hood, I care about RESULTS. I give credit where it is due and a hearty thumbs up to whomever manages to make the most of an engine design or drive format that others consider a dead end.

                    But I also noted that long before I knew the difference between a water cooled engine and an air cooled one, I had wanted an ELECTRIC CAR. That was nothing new at all, I had known instinctively since early childhood that there was something WRONG with the idea that you must BURN SOMETHING to make a vehicle move. I had been waiting ever since I was about six for someone to prove the concept of electric vehicles viable, and I was ecstatic that someone finally had. I pointed out this is precisely the sort of thing I had wanted, and expected, to see out of either Honda or Chevrolet, but they just hadn't done it. Heck, I absolute HATE Porsche vehicles and I would have been ecstatic had they released something like the Model S.

                    I also reminded him that I, of all people, have always DESPISED the very CONCEPT of a 'Sports Sedan'. So for me to sing the praises of a four door liftback 'luxury sports sedan' is a serious thing. He knows full well that is I don't like the cars from companies like AUDI, BMW, Jaguar, and Mercedes-Benz. For those companies most, if not all of their product lines have been primarily Sedans. I find those boring, stodgy, and often ugly. I like Coupes, Convertibles, and Two-Seaters. For the longest time the two-door versions of the German cars were just Sedans with two fewer doors. They were not actually Coupes at all. Until the Model S, I held firmly that the term 'Sports Sedan' was a misnomer, a waste of time and money at best. It has been the first full sized Sedan I have seen that lived up to the hype, while being quiet, powerful, and efficient.

                    Once again he went on a tirade about how Fremont didn't have a unionized workforce... To which I noted that Tesla has been open to a union since day one, but the UAW has never been able to convince employees to join. I explained Tesla even granted the UAW an office on the premises. Having been there since 2010, no dice. Mostly because the employees are perfectly happy to work there and are treated well. Basically, the employees share the same feelings about unions as I do, that in a modern society they aren't needed much because smart companies realize that happy employees do better work. Companies get the unions they deserve. Tesla has a strict 'NO @$$#0L3$' hiring policy, so employees don't have to worry about being harassed and treated unfairly by supervisors or management. Sure, some companies may do well with @$$wipes in charge, but that happens DESPITE their actions, not BECAUSE of them.

                    He said that he wasn't impressed with the interior of the Model S. Said he thought it wasn't appropriate for the amount the car costs. I reminded him I have NEVER been a 'luxury car' guy. I don't care about that stuff, never have. The interiors of cars are naught more than window dressing. You can make any car look any way you like, as they are basically the same beneath the thin veneer of 'luxury' features. Point of order: Cadillac Cimarron versus Chevrolet Citation; or Toyota Camry versus Lexus ES.

                    He said that it was EASY to make 'an expensive electric car' and that 'anybody could do it'. I said that if it is so 'easy' why haven't Cadillac, Lincoln, Chrysler, or Mercedes-Benz done so? Tesla has shown there is a market for awesome, if expensive, electric cars. Surely those much larger companies could show them how to do it right, and thereby BETTER. Right? At the very least, there should be a fully electric long range Buick Electra to challenge Tesla's position among American automakers.

                    He stated that he would be more impressed if Tesla had come out with an inexpensive car, around $25,000 that 'anybody could buy' instead. That would prove to him that they knew what they were doing, by getting into the mix and fighting real competition on all sides. I noted that Elon's goal from the outset has been to make electric cars ubiquitous and affordable. I mentioned the Tesla Master Plan had been written six years before the Model S launched. How it had outlined the progression from a high end, low volume sports car to a mid-level high volume car, and how the Model S was just the second stage of the three phase plan. I noted that Elon's pitch was originally for the exact same dollar amount as a target that he himself had specified: $25,000. But that as cars had become more expensive overall (the average price of a new car then was right about $31,000 then) that had increased to $35,000 and the Tesla Generation III vehicle was due to arrive in 2017.

                    He poo-pooed the Performance aspects of the Model S. This was before the 'D' had arrived. Somehow, it didn't matter to him that the numbers were better for the Model S P85 than for AUDI, BMW, and Mercedes-Benz flagship vehicles. And sometime later, after seeing my posts about Tesla on Facebook, we had a long conversation there where I deflected each of his criticisms with solid facts.

                    It turned out though, that the bottom line was not that he had a problem with Tesla, or their cars, so much as he didn't like Elon Musk. He felt that he had been too loud, boisterous, and arrogant while also being disrespectful to established traditional automobile manufacturers. I thought that was curious, because honestly, in all the time I had ever known him the people he most admired were all loud, boisterous, and arrogant... disrespectful of any and all who disagreed with them. You know, like STONE COLD STEVE AUSTIN or The ROCK. I pointed out I had seen video of where both Elon Musk and Bob Lutz had been on the Charlie Rose show and Elon had expressed deep respect for Bob and his accomplishments in the automobile industry. And ultimately, you aren't arrogant if you can DO it. Elon does what he says he will, even in the face of a multitude of doubters. I like that.

                    For all of this, he refused to watch any video that would prove him wrong. Didn't want to see any direct comparisons on my computer as to Performance, Range, or any other statistics. He had already formed his opinion and wanted to stick to it. So I let him. I strongly believe that if the Model S had Cadillac badges on it, but was entirely manufactured by Tesla Motors, he'd be its biggest fan. But I did decide that when I get my Tesla he will not be allowed to drive it. Ever. I won't even let him sit in the front seat. That way he won't have to risk changing his mind. :D
                     
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                    • Jayc

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                      I'd say let him sit on his poo poo and once you get your Model 3, don't even bother explaining to him how good it is. I've seen many of these characters and most of them thrive on dismissing EVs and especially Tesla. The more you try to convince him, the more he gets a kick out of it by not allowing you to correct his misinformed view. If you look at it from his perspective, if he surrenders to your point of view, from that day onward he will have nothing left. Everything he ever stood for will be lost and he will become a nobody so he will try all he can to stand his ground. So there you go, the human mind works in very fascinating ways and when you know that, you are on top of the world :)
                       
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                      • Red Sage

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                        #15 Red Sage, Dec 16, 2016
                        Last edited: Dec 16, 2016
                        Exactly. This is why I have taken to saying that if you want me to cheer for ICE again, things will have to change. Give me that instant torque. Give me immediate acceleration. Give me zero emissions. Give me 100+ MPG.

                        Surely, someone could construct a 1.5 liter 12-cylinder 60 valve quad-cam VTEC engine with an 18,000 RPM redline that can be dropped into a Civic and run circles around a Model ☰, right? Low displacement, multicam, fuel injection, variable valve timing and lift, high RPM... That should make for smooth, quiet, efficient operation with snappy acceleration and tremendous fuel economy, right? You could even throw a couple of superchargers and quad turbos on it for good measure, complete with intercoolers.

                        The problem is, when it comes to ICE, all the 'tricks' are over and done with. There is nothing new that can be done to improve them. Even hybrid technology only manages to improve overall fuel economy of Midsize cars to about where a Honda CR-X HF was 25+ years ago. All they can do is use the technologies they used to hold back for higher end cars (multicams, turbos, superchargers, etc) and use them on everything.

                        They can't make the cars lighter in weight because market demands for crash testing require you be able to get an IIHS Top Safety Pick rating -- without passengers wearing helmets and using five point seat belts. Tesla has proven that weight reduction is not so big a deal for an electric vehicle as it is for an ICE, due to the instantaneous torque. And after decades of being told 'bigger is better' it would be hard as [FLOCK] to convince the public at large to accept a barebones interior with exposed tube frame construction in a Camry just to reach 100 MPG. For those that insist they must have an ICE for 'fun' driving on the weekends, they can go to the track and pay well for the privilege, while the rest of that vintage technology sits in a museum somewhere.

                        Because what the EV Naysayers most sternly refuse to admit is that they will improve, dramatically. They will only get better with time, and pretty much all of the points in the favor of ICE, no matter how ridiculous they may be will eventually be overcome. There's no way to stop it. Range will increase. Battery packs will have higher capacity. Resistance to temperature change will not be a problem. It doesn't matter that the best of the best ICE is 'better' than the worst of the worst EV at this point in time, because this is the end of the line for ICE, and just the beginning for EV.

                        [​IMG]
                        [​IMG]
                         
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                        • Jayc

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                          That's a great point you make @Red Sage, at this point in time we are looking at the best(end) of ICE vs the possibly worst (infancy) of EV and EV is already winning. I say Elon deserves the very best of success for making the EV motoring a true reality for us.
                           
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                          • Red Sage

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                            Well, I guess they do admit it, just not in a direct, conscious manner. Because their argument is always something to the effect of, "Electric vehicles are not ready for prime time... YET." This is typically phrased as a determination that for whatever trumped up reason an electric vehicle cannot do some specific task that they personally believe can only be accomplished by an ICE. They don't realize that by including the word 'yet' they are giving an admission that even their fringe element pet peeve case may be, as they continually move the goalposts time-after-time, eventually electric vehicles will burst through that barrier too. It is only a matter of time.

                            The thing is...? They thought that 'time' would be a long, long time from NOW. They thought it might happen decades later, maybe as much as 100 years away, and that they wouldn't be around to witness the transition to EVs from ICE. And, they thought that 'change', should it happen during their lifetime, would be brought to market by one of their well known tried and true ICE manufacturers. They never expected that some outsider would appear, so very soon, to dispel that dream of nigh eternal ICE dominance. They might have preferred it be Chevrolet, Ford, or Chrysler, and could possibly accept it being Mercedes-Benz, AUDI, or BMW; they would have been surprised if it had been Honda, Toyota, or Nissan... But all-in-all they would have been able to deal with it. Having such a revolution in automotive excellence come by way of a small upstart firm out of Silicon Valley in California just simply never crossed their minds. That is very hard for them to deal with.

                            And none of their denials changes the fact of how many benchmarks electric vehicles have already passed. Eventually, they just might realize that 'YET'... Was actually yesterday.

                            Thanks, but I was really just paraphrasing Jay Leno. In an episode of his show 'Jay Leno's Garage', which appears largely on YouTube, he noted during a review of an electric vehicle that the last days of old technology are always better than the first days of new technology. That always changes though, always. Because as the new technology matures, it becomes far better than anyone could have expected might be possible. For quite some time, automobiles were still seen as inferior to horses, and there was plenty of evidence to support the notion. To my mind, just as horses were put out to pasture, much the same will happen to ICE vehicles. They'll still be used of course, for recreation, law enforcement, limited government assignments & military engagements... But mostly they'll be trotted out on the weekends for use by rich guys on a track or displayed in parades on a closed course.
                             
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                            • TrevP

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                              @Red Sage is correct about old tech vs new tech. This is a great talk on automotive disruption that everyone should watch.

                               
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                              • KennethK

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                                @TrevP , my solar installer sent me that link last week. It reminded me of this interesting video too...
                                 
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                                • Red Sage

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                                  Yes! I've seen both of those videos before, and love them from beginning to end! Absolutely required viewing for EV Enthusiasts!
                                   

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