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Where is Charging Snake?

Discussion in 'Tech Talk' started by Pinewold, Apr 20, 2016.

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  1. Pinewold

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    How much will the charging Snake cost?
    How far will the charging Snake reach?
    When will the charing Snake be released?
     
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    • Dan Detweiler

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      I'm lost.
      Charging snake? Sorry, I'm new to Tesla.

      Dan
       
    • TrevP

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      @Pinewold is taking about the Tesla "snake charger" prototype.

      It's not available for sale. If Tesla indeed does finish development it will be to enable automated charging at certain Supercharging stations. It might become more clear in the future should the summon feature actually allow long-distance recall.

       
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      • Pinewold

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        Thanks for the video! Was hoping there would be a home version of the snake. If you figure 5% of 400k would be willing to pay $2500 for the Snake, that would mean 20000 potential sales that would be $50 million in sales!

        If there are any VC folks out there, let's talk!
         
      • Van Shrider

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        I'm thinking about the Induction Charging that might be fully perfected by the time we get our cars.


        Depends on the efficiency. And if having the receiver equipment would void the warranty or not.
         
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        • Pinewold

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          True but not half as fun!

          To me, you need to get better than 95% to make induction charging not be wasteful. Have seen 90% so they are getting closer. Hopefully they will also come up with an world wide induction charging standard. Not sure a standard will happen in the next two years.

          Agree that driving into the garage and having the car magically charge will be great, just want some hope of having it work everywhere.
           
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          • garsh

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            #7 garsh, Apr 21, 2016
            Last edited: Apr 21, 2016
            I don't see induction charging being popular. It costs more and takes longer because of the inefficiencies involved.

            I could see it being useful for certain use cases, such as summoning a car from across the country, where it needs to charge itself along an autonomous journey. It would probably be easier to have the car recharge itself inductively than to perfect the charging snake. But to be efficient, the induction coils on the car & at the charging station have to be very close. The tolerances might still be too tight to be practical.
             
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            • Andreas Stephens

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              This is AMAZING! I love the idea - much neater than the "snake"!

              I think these kind of concepts ought not be dismissed due to current technological limitations. If we think that we can send people to Mars, surely we can make something like this work!?!
               
            • TrevP

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              I'm not convinced that inductive charging would be that useful with a Tesla. The efficiency might be improving but the rate of charge cannot be anywhere as high as a direct connection to the charging system and let's not forget Tesla's have massive batteries so the time it would take to charge it…

              Can you imagine the magnetic field being induced by one of those things say at 10Kwh or 20Kwh in my garage?? I don't want an MRI scan each time I walk in to get my bike :)

              Might be OK for cars with smallish batteries like a LEAF or a Volt.

               
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              • Pinewold

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              • garsh

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                It's been a while since I got my electrical engineering degree, but there are real, physical (as in... physics!) limitations to the efficiency of inductive charging.

                We've been doing this sort of inductive coupling for almost 200 years. It's called a transformer. The best efficiency is gained by having the two loops in close proximity and both wrapped around a piece of steel. The best transformers (in the power distribution network) are 98-99% efficient. But we're not going to have a shared steel core between a car and an inductive charger, so it will be less efficient. And we're not going to be able to get the car & charger loops too close together, so it will be less efficient.

                Also, do you remember the old wall wart AC adapters? They used to be heavy because they contained small transformers with chunks of steel in them. They're much smaller & lighter nowadays. This is because switching electronics have become more efficient than transformers at this sort of job.
                 
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                • Badback

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                  What will the inductive receiver do to road clearance? Is it going to stick out a lot? It has been 50+ years since I got my engineering degree, but I know that the losses eventually wind up as heat. 10% losses are going to make your garage a very hot place, this is not good for the batteries, or for your garage.

                  What is the point of trying to save energy if you are going to throw 10% of it away?
                   
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                  • thecatdad

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                    There are losses in any given system. 10% is not bad, given 100% efficiency is impossible. The conversion of [electrical] power into mechanical work brings with it intrinsic efficiency losses: heat, sound, light, etc. So when you hear your dishwasher run, you don't think about the lost efficiency, but some work that could be done on the dishes is actually being lost by being converted to sound. Similarly, the refrig cycle has plenty of losses, mostly sound and heat. Furnace, water heater, well pump, LED lights...they all exhibit losses. Even the solar panels so prized by many in the Tesla community are only so efficient.

                    There are many solutions available depending on the layout of your garage. Gable type vents on an outside wall, installing a thermostat in the charger's circuit to shut down at, say, 77 degrees, a cooling system, etc.

                    I see enough wasted efficiency in all the mechanical systems in my house that 10% or so converted to heat by an inductive charger wouldn't bother me too much.

                    In my garage, I would install a small fan, some ductwork with a 'T' and dampers. In the winter, I'd direct the heat to the house, in the summer, outside. $50 if you install yourself.
                     
                  • PluglessSteve

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                    Greetings, disclosures - I work with Plugless and we do not work with Tesla on our wireless EV chargers. We have been selling 3.3kW chargers for more than two years for Chevy Volt, Nissan LEAF and Cadillac ELR - and we began taking reservations on our 7.2kW system for Tesla S owners a couple months ago. That is a true 7.2kW charger which translates to at least 20 miles per hour of charging. This is plenty for the VAST majority of daily driving, overnight charging times. Efficiency numbers being trotted out need context - % efficient as compared to what? 3rd-party testing is also important. For our part, the 3.3kW Plugless system is roughly 7% less efficient than corded level 1 charging and ~12% less efficient than level 2 corded charging - that's in terms of wall to battery OR wall to on-board chargers. We make that claim based on the extensive 3rd-party testing conducted by the U.S. Dept. of Energy's Idaho National Labs - more than 8.700 separate tests. INL requires publishing: https://avt.inl.gov/sites/default/files/pdf/evse/PLUGLESSEvatranStandaloneTestResultsFactSheet.pdf

                    The 7.2kW system for the Tesla S will go through INL testing as well but our bench tests are showing similar efficiencies. On the Tesla S - the vehicle adapter is invisible (meaning there is no effect on clearance) and weighs ~35 lbs : https://www.pluglesspower.com/shop/reserve-tesla-model-s/
                     
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                    • Pinewold

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                      Agree that 10% is a lot of loss!
                      If a standard can be defined, ideally tesla would create space in underbody shield, but don't don't see this happening in the next two years
                       
                    • PluglessSteve

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                      - I meant to comment on this too (again with Plugless - we are not with Tesla) - the same link i sent above has fields graphed. It's largely contained underneath the car and it's highly focused on the vehicle adapter (so if you are worried do not crawl under there during charging...but even if you did you would be fine - or any metal you had on you would trip a "breaker" on the unit). So bottom line, walking around the back of the EV while charging is the same sorts of exposures you might find talking on your phone in a modern household. Also, while on the topic, we've already provided well over 1/2million charge hours across the US and Canada and have not a single issue with cats (this is also a non-issue).
                       
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                      • Pinewold

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                        Can you comment on 10% losses, how much of the losses shows up as heat, how of the losses much do you think can be eliminated over time? Are there any standards in progress?
                         
                      • PluglessSteve

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                        See my comment above - does that answer your question or questions?

                        Almost entirely as heat and remember two things 1. this is dissipated over time and 2. there are many, varied and quite mature technologies to manage heat (thanks computers!)

                        Improvements in efficiency - Physics apply - as the many much more qualified people above have described. Note: announcements of higher power Wireless EV Chargers need more context - as compared to what? (for example, does the number assume direct to battery charging). Then there are costs of suppling electrical to the home - assuming home charging (the high power WEVC of press releases seems to us to be 100% a public charging play).

                        Yes, we have participated in the SAE committee tasked with the WEVC standards (j2954) - they've been at it for sometime and even when they are announced, there is a long time before they make it into series production (onto cars)....there is also the possibility of competing standards. So the two open questions: 1. will there be a standard by the time the 3 comes out and 2. will Tesla be on board (again, we do not work with Tesla). Those are two VERY open questions as far as we can see.
                         
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                        • garsh

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                          Thanks for the data. That seems pretty good considering the big air gap. Do you know how precise you need to be when parking the vehicle in order to see these efficiency levels?
                           
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                          • PluglessSteve

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                            The data sheet has that info (interestingly the best efficiency is slightly off-center) - you can be off center 4-6" in all directions and still be aligned. As I understand the testing sheets, those are the aggregate of multiple tests so our efficiency claims are what to expect whatever your coupled alignment is. And yes it is VERY good - we very much look forward to competition to enter the market and show similar 3rd-party data - we're confident we'll do quite well.
                             
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